What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
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05-04-2012, 07:01 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 06:05 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  I have a few opinions on this.

1) Egor can be nice, Egor can be not so nice. I think the best way to deal with this is to simply ignore him whenever a comment isn't nice.

Egor by his own admission enjoys the interaction on this forum. He is here for communication.

(Forgive me for this Egor, this is going to sound so condescending but I don't mean it to, it's just an analogy).
Imagine a small child. When they want a chocolate they will take one of two approaches, they will either scream and demand and tantrum, or they will ask politely and say please. Any good parent will only give the child a chocolate when they ask nicely. That way the child learns how to behave appropriately. If you do give a chocolate to a child when they act out then you encourage the behaviour by rewarding it and it is more likely you will face it again.

The same principle applies here. If people only reply to comments that they feel are non-aggressive (whether made by Egor or someone else) then everyone will be forced to either post politely or have no communication on here, everyone would soon learn. This only works if EVERYONE does it though.

Shouting him down just gives him a platform to shout back.

2) I have no problem with someone threatening me with hell. It is a caring thing to do in my book. I've never seen anyone on here gloat over the idea of me going to hell. Instead they always have the approach that they believe atheists are going to hell and they are concerned for us. They don't want us to go hell because they care.

We are in a situation where neither side can prove we are right. We will think and act as though we are right but we have to accept the other side doing the same.

Again think of a small child. If they tell you that they don't believe playing in traffic is dangerous would you let them? Hell no! You'd try and stop them. As far as a theist is concerned that is all they are doing. I have no problem with it.

3) It's a two way street. If people weren't so hostile to Egor maybe he would be less hostile back. As I've repeatedly said, I've had many pleasant interactions with Egor, I've been polite and respectful with him and he has with me.

These are just my opinions Smile.
Re
Shouting him down just gives him a platform to shout back.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] I agree that is a consequence. And it lowers the level of the discussion. Can you suggest a better way of making the point on a public forum? Address the issue rationally and the loud aggressive simplistic protagonist has you beat. You don't fight a machine gun with a water pistol.[/font]
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05-04-2012, 07:06 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 06:41 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I know its a bit long but you really should have actually read it (taken 1 minute) before you label me as being "wound" about Egor.

It ain't "one post" that is the basis for my judgement, or did you forget alla this stuff?


(03-04-2012 03:41 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'll come clean about Egor...

Sure is a whole lotta "last words" coming out about this subject... Angel

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05-04-2012, 07:14 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 06:22 AM)Thomas Wrote:  I love Egor and those like him. Let's call them Egorists. Now Egor is famous.
People like them are why I come to this forum.
If you can't debate him in a forum what are you going to do in real life when it really matters.
This is training day. Don't throw away your best sparing partners.
I agree! I've never said ban him. I just think all atheists should shoot him down. We protect our more sensitive fellow humans if we do, and its the best way to make the public aware of the issues. Of course rational debate would be preferable, but if a fundamentalist fires bullets at you, in my opinion we need to fire back. It clears the air.
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05-04-2012, 07:21 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 06:41 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi Hughsie, thanks for your opinions.

I hear it that you are not put out by theists threatening you with hell. Neither am I. Do you, however, concede my point that many people are? These people are not "weak," they have had childhoods during which they were threatened with hell. Richard Dawkins makes a deal of this in one of his first documentaries, as does Marlene Winnell in her writings. Should such threats be left unchallenged? No! Would you allow your young child to be taught about the never ending fires of hell? I hope not!

Concerning the "niceness" of adamant fundamentalists.....mmmmmm...........of course they can be "nice." Hitler was charming at times. That doesn't excuse their sins, which must not be ignored.

I cannot, and will not, be civil to people who threaten others with hell, or who bad mouth atheists. I have been, and will be, hostile in retaliation. On the other hand I will be perfectly civil and respectful to any Christian who can control their tongue.

Re "We are in a situation where neither side can prove we are right." Mmmmmmmm..............I disagree, but even if we grant that is a fact, noone has ever been psychologically damaged by atheism, whereas there are billions of people who have been by Christianity.
I concede that some people are put out by threats of hell. I'm not so sure what a good way round it is though. I'd be very hesitant to suggest that Egor shouldn't be allowed to express concern for people.

What do you think about my first point? Don't you think that every time everyone responds to a post they don't like they are reinforcing the behaviour?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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05-04-2012, 07:23 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 07:06 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 06:41 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I know its a bit long but you really should have actually read it (taken 1 minute) before you label me as being "wound" about Egor.

It ain't "one post" that is the basis for my judgement, or did you forget alla this stuff?


(03-04-2012 03:41 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'll come clean about Egor...

Sure is a whole lotta "last words" coming out about this subject... Angel
Come on friend, get over the idea I hate Egor. I don't give a toss about him. I have no problem if you want to be his friend. I don't want him banned. I don't want to make "him" feel small. Its what he represents that is the issue. I'm trying to introduce a discussion about the best way to deal with the millions of 'Egors" out there. Read my post...don't just speed read it.
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05-04-2012, 07:25 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 07:23 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Come on friend, get over the idea I hate Egor. I don't give a toss about him. I have no problem if you want to be his friend. I don't want him banned. I don't want to make "him" feel small. Its what he represents that is the issue. I'm trying to introduce a discussion about the best way to deal with the millions of 'Egors" out there. Read my post...don't just speed read it.

Then. Stop. Posting. About. Him.

4realz

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05-04-2012, 07:33 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 07:23 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I have no problem if you want to be his friend.

Oh my Gwynnies, them's fightin' words...

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Big Grin

I know what yer saying. I'm kinda just pulling yer chain, kinda thinking you're too focused on that cat.

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05-04-2012, 07:43 AM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 07:48 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 07:21 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 06:41 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi Hughsie, thanks for your opinions.

I hear it that you are not put out by theists threatening you with hell. Neither am I. Do you, however, concede my point that many people are? These people are not "weak," they have had childhoods during which they were threatened with hell. Richard Dawkins makes a deal of this in one of his first documentaries, as does Marlene Winnell in her writings. Should such threats be left unchallenged? No! Would you allow your young child to be taught about the never ending fires of hell? I hope not!

Concerning the "niceness" of adamant fundamentalists.....mmmmmm...........of course they can be "nice." Hitler was charming at times. That doesn't excuse their sins, which must not be ignored.

I cannot, and will not, be civil to people who threaten others with hell, or who bad mouth atheists. I have been, and will be, hostile in retaliation. On the other hand I will be perfectly civil and respectful to any Christian who can control their tongue.

Re "We are in a situation where neither side can prove we are right." Mmmmmmmm..............I disagree, but even if we grant that is a fact, noone has ever been psychologically damaged by atheism, whereas there are billions of people who have been by Christianity.
I concede that some people are put out by threats of hell. I'm not so sure what a good way round it is though. I'd be very hesitant to suggest that Egor shouldn't be allowed to express concern for people.

What do you think about my first point? Don't you think that every time everyone responds to a post they don't like they are reinforcing the behaviour?
Hi. Thanks for your concession. Yeah.....what to do about it? That's what I'm hoping to discuss. Ok....I agree that fundamentalist Christians have every right to express their concerns for people they think are going to hell. There is a polite, caring way to do that, however, without overtly threatening sensitive people. If you read our "friend's" posts, and in fact what "Jesus" says in the bible about hell, there is a vindictiveness to it..."Believe...or else...." This is psychologically damaging to many people and particularly children, and "we" i.e. informed, caring, confident atheists should stand up for them.

Re responding to posts we don't like. I think if we remain silent we are giving them a licence to hurt people. I agree that some aggressive fundamentalists may get excited and encouraged by conflict.....but.....we are in the public eye. There are passive people hearing, reading and judging our comments. We mustn't passively let fundamentalists have the floor. My tactic is to fire back, and then try to restart a rational discussion. If that don't work, then the other party deserves to be ignored. What do you think?
(05-04-2012 07:33 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 07:23 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I have no problem if you want to be his friend.

Oh my Gwynnies, them's fightin' words...

[Image: irish.gif]

Big Grin

I know what yer saying. I'm kinda just pulling yer chain, kinda thinking you're too focused on that cat.
Ah, you may be "right," (whatever that means.) I think I'll have another beer LOL
(05-04-2012 07:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 07:23 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Come on friend, get over the idea I hate Egor. I don't give a toss about him. I have no problem if you want to be his friend. I don't want him banned. I don't want to make "him" feel small. Its what he represents that is the issue. I'm trying to introduce a discussion about the best way to deal with the millions of 'Egors" out there. Read my post...don't just speed read it.

Then. Stop. Posting. About. Him.

4realz
I'm. Not. Posting. About. Him. Read. The. Post.
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05-04-2012, 07:51 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
Hmmm, why do the words "divide and conquer" keep popping into my head?

Egor ignores and/or attacks some and coddles others. Everyone reacts in predictable ways.

What's wrong with that picture?

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05-04-2012, 07:53 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 07:43 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi. Thanks for your concession. Yeah.....what to do about it? That's what I'm hoping to discuss. Ok....I agree that fundamentalist Christians have every right to express their concerns for people they think are going to hell. There is a polite, caring way to do that, however, without overtly threatening sensitive people. If you read our "friend's" posts, and in fact what "Jesus" says in the bible about hell, there is a vindictiveness to it..."Believe...or else...." This is psychologically damaging to many people and particularly children, and "we" i.e. informed, caring, confident atheists should stand up for them.

Re responding to posts we don't like. I think if we remain silent we are giving them a licence to hurt people. I agree that some aggressive fundamentalists may get excited and encouraged by conflict.....but.....we are in the public eye. There are passive people hearing, reading and judging our comments. We mustn't passively let fundamentalists have the floor. My tactic is to fire back, and then try to restart a rational discussion. If that don't work, then the other party deserves to be ignored. What do you think?
I think firing back makes the issue worse. People join forums to communicate, if you give them that when they act anti-socially then you reinforce anti-social behaviour. It's like on those TV nanny shows when parents get told not to give their kids any attention when they have a tantrum because it rewards the behaviour.

I try and ignore people if they said something I think is out of line. If I ever thought it was overly bad then I would PM them to calmly discuss it with them rather than make a big deal in a thread, that just encourages conflict. Other people join in like a pack of wolves and the person who made the comment gets defensive. Nothing gets achieved then.

I think one problem is that, although most people won't admit it, it feels good to openly bash someone you disagree with if the majority of other people agree with you. I have to admit, I did really enjoy telling MJB what a jackass he was being over in the politics section. It's an instinct that we all (me included) need to try and control.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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