What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
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05-04-2012, 08:02 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 07:51 AM)Dom Wrote:  Hmmm, why do the words "divide and conquer" keep popping into my head?

Egor ignores and/or attacks some and coddles others. Everyone reacts in predictable ways.

What's wrong with that picture?

The hell you going on about? Thing about being Johnny Cantor, is that you can be sure in a few minutes I'm gonna go on about my Gwynnies... see? Big Grin

Egor's just a flavor of the month. Imma gonna go on about my Gwynnies foreverz. Wink

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05-04-2012, 08:27 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 07:00 AM)robotworld Wrote:  There is always a line, but in my opinion it is nearly impossible to have a common line for every one as each person has varying degrees of tolerance. For instance, SOME PEOPLE CAN BE EASILY IRRITATED JUST BY SEEING POSTS TYPED IN ALL CAPS, or if teh poost contians alot of grammetical an speling mistaeks.

Strawmen versus Strawmen. This could potentially bring about a lot of hilarious discussions on any issue.But I may have to disagree with your point regarding the generalisation of atheists. We all generalise things one way or another. Just like what I did in the previous sentence. Some of us see young Earth creationists as silly people who have no understanding on science, which I disagree, for some indeed have the scientific knowledge, but have a different interpretation, while some have thought through, and reached a different conclusion.

I agree that Egor should tone down a bit, but I suspect he is only aggressive when others are in the first place aggressive towards him (citation needed). But when he is calm, he can strike up a nice discussion, those types where you can talk over a cup of tea.
Hi Robotworld, I agree with your first paragraph. The line is difficult to place.

Re generalisations about atheists. Yes we all do generalise about things....agreed. And atheists (myself included ) often make the mistake of generalising about Christians. My point was that to make sweeping generalisations about atheists is plainly wrong....its a bit like making a sweeping generalisation about someone who doesn't play soccer.

Concerning aggressive fundamentalist types (such as you know who) only responding to abuse, consider this. There can be no more aggressive (verbal) threat than to condemn someone to hell. Also, there are are some really gentle souls, like Lillth (super intelligent, but very "nice") who have been quite offended by him.

It is true I abused him first thing, and he retaliated. Yet I'd done my background checks on him and was disgusted by what I read. I have never abused anyone on this forum before, and I've been on here for 9 months. Anyway...enough of him.
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05-04-2012, 08:45 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
This would have been a good thread if it were not just another thinly veiled attempt at the same thing you've been doing for days now.

I would love to give you the line Mark, but it is indeed different for each situation.
For the ones you are continuously labeling as attacks, I would not. You like to throw that word around a lot and that destroys your credibility as one who can claim it. Your last post about the supposed threat of rape was such a far stretch I'm sure stretch armstrong was impressed.

But regardless of that, the line is different for everyone. The personal line. Beyond that there is the hard line which is genuine threats of bodily harm. That gets an immediate ban. That has yet to happen with your one and only example (which to me is a genuine example of picking on someone) what about Abdelz Mark? He was banned. Know why? Because he would have made an excellent example of abusive. He was abusive with his language and with his threats, and almost every time it was without any kind of provocation.

Your other example is someone who isn't very pleasant, but for the most part has only been extremely rude to those who were extremely rude to him. Not the best example as far as I'm concerned. It also doesn't help when you take posts out of context, or blow them out of proportion.
What should we call it when there are people who make post after post about a single individual, calling them names and ripping apart their character? Is that abuse?
If you don't want someone to be hostile towards you then it would be much more effective to not call them out every two fucking seconds.

Picture this in real life. But don't take it as a threat, just an example.

Someone goes around talking shit about someone they don't like. All the time. That person who's shit was talked about finds out.
What would happen? I think you know.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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05-04-2012, 08:48 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 07:53 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 07:43 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi. Thanks for your concession. Yeah.....what to do about it? That's what I'm hoping to discuss. Ok....I agree that fundamentalist Christians have every right to express their concerns for people they think are going to hell. There is a polite, caring way to do that, however, without overtly threatening sensitive people. If you read our "friend's" posts, and in fact what "Jesus" says in the bible about hell, there is a vindictiveness to it..."Believe...or else...." This is psychologically damaging to many people and particularly children, and "we" i.e. informed, caring, confident atheists should stand up for them.

Re responding to posts we don't like. I think if we remain silent we are giving them a licence to hurt people. I agree that some aggressive fundamentalists may get excited and encouraged by conflict.....but.....we are in the public eye. There are passive people hearing, reading and judging our comments. We mustn't passively let fundamentalists have the floor. My tactic is to fire back, and then try to restart a rational discussion. If that don't work, then the other party deserves to be ignored. What do you think?
I think firing back makes the issue worse. People join forums to communicate, if you give them that when they act anti-socially then you reinforce anti-social behaviour. It's like on those TV nanny shows when parents get told not to give their kids any attention when they have a tantrum because it rewards the behaviour.

I try and ignore people if they said something I think is out of line. If I ever thought it was overly bad then I would PM them to calmly discuss it with them rather than make a big deal in a thread, that just encourages conflict. Other people join in like a pack of wolves and the person who made the comment gets defensive. Nothing gets achieved then.

I think one problem is that, although most people won't admit it, it feels good to openly bash someone you disagree with if the majority of other people agree with you. I have to admit, I did really enjoy telling MJB what a jackass he was being over in the politics section. It's an instinct that we all (me included) need to try and control.
Good points Hughsie...thanks. There's a lot of variables here, isn't there, and not one right answer.

I just thought of something. In my imagination, I'm pretending these discussions are live with an audience. I'm imagining how I should deal with the aggressive fundamentalist. You, and everyone else, of course, are just dealing with the situation at hand ( unless you have the same delusions as me LOL). In many ways they are two different things.

Yeah, it does feel good to put someone down. Or...I should say...it does feel good to destroy a weak argument. And I would say there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure you know what a "hitchslap" is. He refined that over many years, and he was good at it also because he knew his facts and his history. Gee I would like to be one tenth as good as him. He made the world a better place.
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05-04-2012, 10:01 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 08:45 AM)lucradis Wrote:  This would have been a good thread if it were not just another thinly veiled attempt at the same thing you've been doing for days now.

I would love to give you the line Mark, but it is indeed different for each situation.
For the ones you are continuously labeling as attacks, I would not. You like to throw that word around a lot and that destroys your credibility as one who can claim it. Your last post about the supposed threat of rape was such a far stretch I'm sure stretch armstrong was impressed.

But regardless of that, the line is different for everyone. The personal line. Beyond that there is the hard line which is genuine threats of bodily harm. That gets an immediate ban. That has yet to happen with your one and only example (which to me is a genuine example of picking on someone) what about Abdelz Mark? He was banned. Know why? Because he would have made an excellent example of abusive. He was abusive with his language and with his threats, and almost every time it was without any kind of provocation.

Your other example is someone who isn't very pleasant, but for the most part has only been extremely rude to those who were extremely rude to him. Not the best example as far as I'm concerned. It also doesn't help when you take posts out of context, or blow them out of proportion.
What should we call it when there are people who make post after post about a single individual, calling them names and ripping apart their character? Is that abuse?
If you don't want someone to be hostile towards you then it would be much more effective to not call them out every two fucking seconds.

Picture this in real life. But don't take it as a threat, just an example.

Someone goes around talking shit about someone they don't like. All the time. That person who's shit was talked about finds out.
What would happen? I think you know.
Re "This would have been a good thread if it were not just another thinly veiled attempt at the same thing you've been doing for days now." Mate...you don't understand my agenda. I'm not going to repeat myself again to explain it to you. There's nothing veiled here. I'm straight down the line.

"For the ones you are continuously labeling as attacks, I would not." That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. There are perhaps a dozen people who disagree with you.


"You like to throw that word around a lot and that destroys your credibility" That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I'm not here to build up my credibility. I'm here to discuss how to deal with a serious problem. And I'm not talking just about Egor. I'm talking about the millions of people out there like him that are poisoning our societies.


Re "Your last post about the supposed threat of rape was such a far stretch I'm sure stretch armstrong was impressed
". We will have to agree to disagree on that. It is very clear what he meant as far as I'm concerned.

Re "It also doesn't help when you take posts out of context, or blow them out of proportion." Lucradis, I spent a fair bit of time going over many posts. If i tried to put all his ranting into context, noone would read it and I'd be wasting my time. We can all read his drivel for ourselves.

Re "Your other example is someone who isn't very pleasant," Correct! You haven't gone far enough though. Pathologically offensive is more apt.

Re "but for the most part has only been extremely rude to those who were extremely rude to him." Oh dear! Now I'm sure you haven't read all his posts. There are a number of times people patiently, and at great length, discuss issues with him, and he replies with the equivalent of "fuck you." That is offensive.

Re "What should we call it when there are people who make post after post about a single individual, calling them names and ripping apart their character? Is that abuse?" Yes, it is abuse! Yet the abuse was retaliatory. As I've tried to explain in this post we must not be passive in the face of blatant attacks. And I wasn't the only one who abused him. This character deserved to be ridiculed. He was patronising, rude, aggressive, and didn't respond in any meaningful way to any of the patient people who tried to discuss with him. He seriously pissed off and offended many people.
Re "If you don't want someone to be hostile towards you then it would be much more effective to not call them out every two fucking seconds." In this case, NO. I read through page after page after page of people patiently trying to help this chap, and he just threw shit back in their face.

Lucradis, I have no fight with you. I accept you see him differently to me. I understand that you and some others were disappointed at my seemingly feral attitude to him, and that you like some aspects of him. I understand you may have been disappointed that the standard of discussion had been reduced to abuse. Who needs abuse? It is childish and pathetic. Please understand this. My abuse was intended to draw attention to his abuse. He started throwing shit in the forum, not me. I got no pleasure putting him down. I have no need to make myself feel big at his expense. I don't particularly care about him (as I suspect he's beyond help), but I do care about the standard of discussion in this forum and the mental well being of some of the members who I happen to like. I don't like seeing nice, rational intelligent people abused by an aggressive idiot.

So...please don't label me as a hot headed vindictive Egor hating person. I don't hate him. If somebody else had dealt with him and supported those he offended I would have quite happily watched from the sidelines. I went too far with the poo in the toilet bowl. I have just been trying to restore some order and, rightly or wrongly, to encourage my fellow atheists to flex some muscle when necessary.
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05-04-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
You don't have to repeat yourself Mark. I know what game you're playing whether you admit it or not.

Also I've read every single post Egor has ever made on this forum. Every single one. I've also had to read every single post surrounding them. It's been a joy I can't possibly express to you without you actually going through them all as objectively as you can.

Also it would help you if you stop asserting that anyone who is defending situations could being doing so for any other reasons than to be egors best friend. It's lame. Also not helping.

I am not picking sides I'm only commenting on what is happening. If I start seeing Egor posting thread after thread about you I'd respond in a similar manner.

I don't give a shit about sides only hypocritical behavior.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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05-04-2012, 10:15 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 05:35 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 05:31 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Lies. Yeah, you are. Tongue
Gimme a break...have you read it? This issue is much bigger than fucking Egor

Here's the problem --- you didn't implicate any atheists into the argument, and that's fairly easy to do. Because of our natural bias, we tend to take it easy on people who agree with us, even when we don't agree with their methods. Are there atheists who don't attack the argument but instead attack the person, right here on this forum? Of course.

Why didn't you make a thread against the one of the problems you see in Egor's arguments (such as the implied ad hominem)? Why did you feel that you had to make a personal case against Egor?

Please don't put us in this position. I hate defending Egor, but I have yet to see him publish a thread with the intent of putting a specific person down, otherwise I would be making this same case against him instead of you. If he replied to any of my posts with personal attacks, I'd make a point that it was a logical fallacy --- the same answer I'd have for anyone who did the same. If it doesn't convince him, that's fine! We rarely persuade the person we're arguing with, but we may persuade a reader because they have less at stake by personally admitting that their previous stance on the topic was wrong.

There's a button that allows you to report abuse any time you feel you've seen it. That's the proper method for dealing with someone if you truly feel they're violating your rights here.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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05-04-2012, 10:40 AM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
You start a thread about abuse from egor then basically go on to attack him, a tad hypocritical if you ask me.

And no I'm not defending him, egors a cunt! we know it, he knows it, anyone who's been on the same forum as him knows it.

I wouldn't hesitate to kick his ass off the forum if he broke the rules but the fact is as unpleasant as he is, hes not broken ANY of the rules.

People if you don't like him please just ignore him its not difficult, he'll get board and find somewhere else to get banned from.

Behold the power of the force!
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05-04-2012, 10:41 AM
 
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
OMG, Another Oscar. I don't know what to say. I'm just so, overwhelmed. I love you all! I'm too overwhelmed for words. I'm going to let my alter ego speak for me.






Truth is: I'm nice to anyone who is nice to me. All you have to do is ask me nicely. Rolleyes
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05-04-2012, 03:35 PM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
I have to say, I am comforted a bit reading the responses in this thread.

Gary
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