What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
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05-04-2012, 04:49 PM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
Honestly, I think many people here have crossed a line, but quite frankly I shrug it off, either give you a smart ass post and move on, or just ignore you.


Egor: I have to disagree, sometimes I've seen that you can be a real unprovoked ass, however, you do have your nice moments. I will give you that.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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05-04-2012, 04:56 PM
 
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
I'm nice to anyone who has the manners to be nice to me. But you feed me this backhanded compliment and then want me to respect you: "you can be a real unprovoked ass"?

It's not going to happen. By the way, you won't drip blood from your cough in hell. When you get to hell, you will simply want and never have. You all make hell too complicated. It's banally simple. You reject God; God rejects you. That's it.

Now, in the most unprovoked way I know let me say, kiss my unprovoked ass.
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05-04-2012, 05:01 PM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
Sorry honey buns, the truth can sting.

I don't really care if I have your respect, but I'm going to call out your faults when I see them either way.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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05-04-2012, 05:15 PM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
What degree of ignorance and window licking is acceptable here? This is what? The third thread opened about this same discussion? Shut yo faces.

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05-04-2012, 05:20 PM
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 05:26 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  






I address all
contributors to this forum, but particularly the thinking atheists.



Most of us are here to
learn and to share and maybe to get some
support from like-minded friends. Some, perhaps all, get some satisfaction out of
“proving” we are “right” on this forum.
Other times we swallow some “humble pie.” Its all good…and the end of the day
we learn from each other. Our egos might sometimes get knocked a little, but
that’s healthy.



Over the last few
weeks one contributor to this forum, Egor, has gone beyond the “banter” level
of conversation to seriously offend some members. Don’t worry, I’m not starting
another thread about Egor per se, and I’m not asking moderators to “do
something” about him, but I want to use him as an example to help us ( atheists
) decide what level of abuse/threats we should accept without silencing and
retaliating aggressively against the opposition.



I spent some time
rereading only some of his comments. There is no doubt he has seriously pissed
off many people. Here are a few examples…



Leela “I have stopped taking part in the
theological discussions pretty much completely and the second I see Egor in one
of them I stop reading it because it is a fucking pain in the ass. Although I
would like to keep reading such threads I just can't because the very second he
enters a thread it doesn't take and the whole thing is turned into a rant or a
flame war.”


Angele


“On about day two that I was on this forum, I
had had my 'nough (as my sister would say) with Egor and stopped reading
anything he posted”


Clint


“When did you miss the complete disrespect he
dishes out to you and every atheist? Just saying, it's time to stop apologizing
just to be all friendly. I do understand your comments on the obvious
derailment after his posts though.”


Lilith


“I feel really bad that he challenged my gender
and I left it at this will not be discussed on the forum.”


Sure for a little while Egor calmed down on the
whole contrarian attitude but that was only for a short time. He went right
back to focusing on and attacking people. He doesn't argue with someone
logically, he attacks them. Yes it's important for debaters to be able to stand
up to this sort of thing, but many members aren't worried about being debaters.
Many members don't even discuss their beliefs outside this forum. Plenty of
members barely discuss them here.


He is not here promoting understanding and
involvement in exploring all that there is to see. He's not here expanding much
of anything, he's just inflating his ego by crushing those who aren't looking
for a debate. Those who come to feel a little less secluded. Those who ran away
from others like him.


Many of the members here need support more than
a challenge, and this is where I truly detest Egor. The main time he interjects
with his venomous attacks is when someone is asking for help. He focuses on
cutting the heads off of the weaker links.


Defending someone like him to the extent that
some of you do makes me quite sick. There are thoughts I work very hard to
overcome. I expose myself to difficult situations all the time, shaking the
whole way through. The reason for my speaking out, and for all the exposure I
give something that no one would realise if I didn't mention it, is because I
want to prove to people there is a better side to the argument. I want them to
know the truth before people like him force an idea into their heads.


As I
said earlier in this thread. He started this same attack I've had to deal with
everywhere I go. I do not come here to prove my existence!!!!!!! I have to do
that too often already, with people like him who would rather there not be
anyone like me. This place is supposed to be a momentary release from the
pressures of being such a minority in so many ways. I'm not saying that debate
shouldn't happen, but this shouldn't be the place for venom, this shouldn't be
the place where questioning and learning are "smacked down".”






Someone else…


“We shouldn't be
promoting ignorance. I wasn't saying he should be banned. I was saying
that many of you don't understand the PTSD issues some of us have, and using
the "Ignore" button or just averting one's eyes isn't a tenable
solution.”


I could quote more, but I think I’ve made a point.


Egor
admits he wants to be famous…”Look, when I get famous, and I will,”


His modus operandi is to achieve notoriety by offending people. He
wants


to be a John Hagee or a Pat Robertson.





Now, fellow atheists, consider how he does
this.
1.


1. He attacks people, ie he creates straw men. For example…


“Fuck
you.”


“I
don’t think you’re stupid either. And your paragraph right there. I agree with
it. So, why the fuck are you an atheist? Why are you wasting your time in that
intellectual dead end?”


“Because
to make a statement like that and not be able to defend it is pretty stupid.
Are you stupid?”


“You wouldn’t know a solid foundation if you
were buried in one.”


“You go to all this trouble to tell people
you're a "doctor," You start off with this more-educated-than-thou
attitude and this is what you end up like. A sidelined, insulting, atheistic
jerk, just like the fools at Raving Atheist. Mark”


“Right
now you are a parasite on the host which is the Christian Church. Once you have
killed your host, you will die too.”


2. He
attacks atheism, and all atheists, without exception


“fatuous theists and their smug self proclaimed
moral superiority”


“When I was a Humane
Officer in Southern California twenty years ago, one of the tasks we performed
was picking up dead animals off the city streets (Riverside). So, I go and pick
up this bloated dog and bring it back to the shelter to throw in the freezer
with the others, as I pull it out, a bunch ofmaggots fall onto the driveway.
Just then, the chickens we had collectively seized over the years (which we
just let run free around the shelter grounds) came running over and immediately
began eating the maggots. They loved them. Christianity is the bloated dog.
Atheism is the maggots. Veridicanism is the chickens.”


“For those who actively reject Christ (as all
atheists do) there is hell, hell for the pleasure of God.”


“I think I really am beginning to see the whole
universe like a giant MMA “cage match.”


“It is only for this forum that I have come to
see some atheists as even human beings


”The narcissist, the sinner, the stupid, the
lazy = those who will never be able to believe in God.”


I could go on. There is an almost bottomless
pit of pathology here.


My point is we have to draw a line somewhere.
As rational open-minded atheists we should be open-minded enough to listen to
all Christian arguments. BUT….


A) 1.we should shout down all “straw man” arguments. When “Egors” get
personal, they are avoiding the real issues. Point out the fallacy…then reply
by machine-gunning their kneecaps with your own straw man.


B) 2.We absolutely should shout down threats of hell. There are
beautiful people struggling a little because they are still psychologically
damaged by their Christian upbringing with its threats of hell. We should protect
them. After all, to threaten anyone with hell is, in fact, effectively an admission
their argument is piss-poor weak.


C) 3.We should allow no generalizations about “atheists.” Atheists are an
incredibly diverse bunch with only one small thing in common.


If we are going to be proud atheists we must
stop being pussies. Egor, and anyone like him, must be told to go fuck himself,
and then ignored.


In a few months I will publish my book and,
hopefully, become a more public advocate of atheism. So I’ve had to think hard
about how I will deal with the Egors of this world. I’m open to all input…so
what does everyone else think?
Mark, I understand your frustration whole heartily, I do. I suggest you check out thinkatheist.com also. They aren't as apologetic and they even have a little chat program built into the site. It's my alternative and from what I'm finding it's a lot less groupie style. I'm not saying it's like that completely on this board but I do see it from time to time. It's not biggie to me, obviously, because I still come here and enjoy a good many of the posts.

I do think most nonbelievers on these forums forget the different phases gone through during their atheistic deconversion or realization of the facts. Maybe not forget but possibly get into that laid back mode, I know the word I can't think of it right away though lol, anyway I just wanted to give you the support I think you deserve on this. Even though there is a bit of diplomacy that the admins/mods have to portray, even when they want to kick the shit outta someone. It sucks when you always get negative and conflicting replies and I'm just not that way (some of the time).

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

Keeping realism alive, one honest offensive comment at a time!
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05-04-2012, 05:51 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 05:56 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
When is all this crap going to stop?

Quite obviously Mark Fulton is again attacking Egor by very poorly veiled stealth, and the latter is more than happy to reciprocate.

As I indicated at the time a full toilet bowl (symbol for Egor's cult) as posted by Mark suggests that these opponents are worthy of one another, Egor having written of chickens consuming the maggots from bursting bloated dogs.

I have expressed some anger at times but I do not hold grudges and go on and on and on.

Good luck Lucradis, this forum is too good to become a major vehicle for petty bitching and hatred.
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05-04-2012, 06:00 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2012 12:01 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
Mark makes the mistake of engaging some idiot who is promoting his own incomprehensible and untenable metaphysics as the new ONE TRUE RELIGION. What the fuck, Mark? He's doing the same thing every religion does. How do I get enough exposure to make me some money from the teatarded masses? He wants to be L. Ron Egor. Poke him with a stick occasionally just to dick with and provoke him and then get back to the business of enjoying yourself. ... Now if he was being an asshole and prick to me face-to-face, well Girly might have a different response in those circumstances.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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05-04-2012, 09:56 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 10:23 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 10:09 AM)lucradis Wrote:  You don't have to repeat yourself Mark. I know what game you're playing whether you admit it or not.

Also I've read every single post Egor has ever made on this forum. Every single one. I've also had to read every single post surrounding them. It's been a joy I can't possibly express to you without you actually going through them all as objectively as you can.

Also it would help you if you stop asserting that anyone who is defending situations could being doing so for any other reasons than to be egors best friend. It's lame. Also not helping.

I am not picking sides I'm only commenting on what is happening. If I start seeing Egor posting thread after thread about you I'd respond in a similar manner.

I don't give a shit about sides only hypocritical behaviour
"I know what game you're playing whether you admit it or not." Well mate you know something about me that i don't. Please tell me what you think. You are implying I've not been honest (which is pretty serious). Let's clear this up.


Ok....I believe you that you have read every single post. We have a difference of opinion then about how such a character should be dealt with. You think he should be ignored. Others obviously agree with you. I don't think he should be ignored. That's what I hope would be discussed on this post. You obviously think I have gone too far, and I'm open to that criticism. How then to put an end to the abuse? I think just sitting here on our hands hoping it will stop is not satisfactory when people are hurting. Banning him is not an option because we respect free speech.

I'm not sure why you think I think you are friends with him. I've never thought that.

You may be commenting on what's happening, and I hear it that you think my personal attack on him is unwarranted. I've learnt from that.

I think we disagree about the seriousness of the problem. I think it is absolutely unacceptable to tell people they are going to hell. Period. It is a worse insult than a poo picture or a "fuck off." This is what we should be discussing. We should have a united front on this. That view might be too radical...I'm trying to learn what other's think.

I hear it that you think I've come across as a hypocrite...and I will be more careful in future


(05-04-2012 10:15 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 05:35 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Gimme a break...have you read it? This issue is much bigger than fucking Egor

Here's the problem --- you didn't implicate any atheists into the argument, and that's fairly easy to do. Because of our natural bias, we tend to take it easy on people who agree with us, even when we don't agree with their methods. Are there atheists who don't attack the argument but instead attack the person, right here on this forum? Of course.

Why didn't you make a thread against the one of the problems you see in Egor's arguments (such as the implied ad hominem)? Why did you feel that you had to make a personal case against Egor?

Please don't put us in this position. I hate defending Egor, but I have yet to see him publish a thread with the intent of putting a specific person down, otherwise I would be making this same case against him instead of you. If he replied to any of my posts with personal attacks, I'd make a point that it was a logical fallacy --- the same answer I'd have for anyone who did the same. If it doesn't convince him, that's fine! We rarely persuade the person we're arguing with, but we may persuade a reader because they have less at stake by personally admitting that their previous stance on the topic was wrong.

There's a button that allows you to report abuse any time you feel you've seen it. That's the proper method for dealing with someone if you truly feel they're violating your rights here.
Re "Are there atheists who don't attack the argument but instead attack the person, right here on this forum?"
Absolutely yes, and I'm the best example. My argument is that to attack them is necessary when people are being hurt and rational discussion impossible. It is unfortunate, but necessary. Obviously some people disagree with me, so we should discuss it.

Re "Why did you feel that you had to make a personal case against Egor?" Because of his relentless bullying of good people and his persistent avoidance of rational debate. I hear it that some others disagree with me about this.

Re "Please don't put us in this position." I'm genuinely sorry you feel uncomfortable. Also...who are "we" and what position are you referring to? I'm missing something here. Please explain.

Gosh....I'm genuinely perplexed as to how you don't think he hasn't personally attacked people! I won't rehash examples, as everyone is getting sick of that. We can all read his stuff for ourselves. Well...I hear you....I will have a long hard look at myself to see if I have misunderstood what he's been posting. Will you do the same? and perhaps we might touch on some common ground.

Re.."There's a button that allows you to report abuse any time you feel you've seen it. That's the proper method for dealing with someone if you truly feel they're violating your rights here." Got that! Will use!
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05-04-2012, 10:27 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 10:52 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 09:56 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I think we disagree about the seriousness of the problem. I think it is absolutely unacceptable to tell people they are going to hell. Period.

I think you will find yourself in the minority here since most don't believe in hell anyway. I mean other than the heaven and hell we all make for ourselves right here, right now. ... Telling me I'm going to burn in hell for eternity is about as insulting as telling me it's time to go to bed. ... I take that back, it's not even insulting, just ... childish. ... But I do got my eye on L. Ron Egor to see if his efforts yield some serious cash. Big Grin

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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05-04-2012, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 11:09 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: What degree of abuse or threat is acceptable?
(05-04-2012 10:40 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  You start a thread about abuse from egor then basically go on to attack him, a tad hypocritical if you ask me.

And no I'm not defending him, egors a cunt! we know it, he knows it, anyone who's been on the same forum as him knows it.

I wouldn't hesitate to kick his ass off the forum if he broke the rules but the fact is as unpleasant as he is, hes not broken ANY of the rules.

People if you don't like him please just ignore him its not difficult, he'll get board and find somewhere else to get banned from.
Re "You start a thread about abuse from egor then basically go on to attack him, a tad hypocritical if you ask me." If someone starts a fist fight, and you fight back, that is not hypocritical, even if you are a pacifist. It is using the only weapon likely to be effective ..your fists.


Agreed. Agreed. I don't want him kicked off either.

Re ignoring him. We obviously disagree about the importance of the problem. It is the principle of the matter that is the issue. If we ignore threats of hell (as is done in schools all around the world), those threats remain socially acceptable. If we allow assholes a voice and a platform in the interests of free speech and fair play, they can dominate public opinion. If a fundamentalist is (almost ) universally offending people, and in fact inflaming psychological issues, someone needs to fire back. Someone, somewhere has to make a stand.

As I've found out, that person runs the risk of appearing to be an asshole himself.


(05-04-2012 10:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 09:56 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I think we disagree about the seriousness of the problem. I think it is absolutely unacceptable to tell people they are going to hell. Period.

I think you will find yourself in the minority here since most don't believe in hell anyway. I mean other than the heaven and hell we all make for ourselves right here, right now. ... Telling me I'm going to burn in hell for eternity is about as insulting as telling me it's time to go to bed. ... I take that back, it's not even insulting, just ... childish. ... But I do got my eye on L. Ron Egor to see if his efforts yield some serious cash. Big Grin
I agree. Threats of hell don't bother me in the slightest either. But can you appreciate that there are good people who have been traumatised by hell (usually since childhood)? Let me draw an analogy. Imagine you are a woman who has been gang raped years earlier. Now you hear men threatening violence against women. Wouldn't that make your guts churn, no matter how far away or unreal the threat was? The analogy is not perfect, but do you take my point? Threats of hell have terrified children and adults over the centuries. We should make a stand against it.
(05-04-2012 06:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Mark makes the mistake of engaging some idiot who is promoting his own incomprehensible and untenable metaphysics as the new ONE TRUE RELIGION. What the fuck, Mark? He's doing the same thing every religion does. How do I get enough exposure to make me some money from the teatarded masses? He wants to be L. Ron Hubbard. Poke him with a stick occasionally just to dick with and provoke him and then get back to the business of enjoying yourself. ... Now if he was being an asshole and prick to me face-to-face, well Girly might have a different response in those circumstances.
I agree with you totally about him and his motives. And yes...I may have been too "anal" about coming down on him. I take your point about enjoying life. I'm going sailing to Moreton Island (off Brisbane) tomorrow, and I'll be trying to clear my head of all this
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