What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
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07-03-2013, 03:43 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 03:47 AM by PoolBoyG.)
RE: What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
Yes, User, breeding exists. Intelligent agencies like dog breeders can think of a trait(s) they want, and artificially select for it.

No, User, the Universe/earth/contemporary environments were not manipulated by an intelligence to evolve specific organisms with specific traits. Don't think this is any less wrong or insane of a belief than an intelligence directly "manipulating" the biology/chemistry of organisms.

I've repeated this basic message for a few posts now.

Something new: I don't want the User to get the wrong impression that they've got something here due to the length of the thread. Either that they think they're correct, or that they've effectively trolled the board. It's been some time that someone so very very misinformed and stubborn has crossed the forum. The regular users were just bored, and found something new. There's no more entertainment in this thread.

User claims breeding exists. True. User claims a god is breeding organisms (some if not all). That's false. User is persistent in their claim. And around and around we go.
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07-03-2013, 04:08 AM
RE: What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
(07-03-2013 03:43 AM)poolboyg88 Wrote:  Yes, User, breeding exists. Intelligent agencies like dog breeders can think of a trait(s) they want, and artificially select for it.

No, User, the Universe/earth/contemporary environments were not manipulated by an intelligence to evolve specific organisms with specific traits. Don't think this is any less wrong or insane of a belief than an intelligence directly "manipulating" the biology/chemistry of organisms.

I've repeated this basic message for a few posts now.
You are wrong. Let me explain.

Breeding requires the intervention of an intellect at every generation. Designing a fitness paradigm that produces the desired form only requires one intervention.
Dawkins has a "biomorph" example where at each generation he makes a selection...That is an example of breeding. In his "methinks" example, he only has to design the fitness paradigm and then just let the process run its course without any further intervention. The difference between the two examples is significant.

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07-03-2013, 04:35 AM
RE: What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
Heywood, your claim basically boils down to this. You claim that the environment of earth was engineered to specifically create the organisms that exist now, and/or the organisms that will exist in the future. This specifically designed environment is your "fitness paradigm". Yes? Because that's the only definition that fits the nonsense you've been spewing.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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07-03-2013, 12:39 PM
RE: What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
This all comes down to "Things can't happen naturally without a supernatural cause. They have to be created"
It's also a deist kind of belief. The god sets things up and let's everything happen.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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07-03-2013, 01:15 PM
RE: What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
(07-03-2013 12:39 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  This all comes down to "Things can't happen naturally without a supernatural cause. They have to be created"
It's also a deist kind of belief. The god sets things up and let's everything happen.
We haven't talked about all things. All we have talked about is evolution. Further no argument has yet been given that God used evolution to create anything. All that his been argued is that God could use evolution as a tool of creation by designing the fitness paradigm(as opposed to breeding or manipulating mutations).

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07-03-2013, 01:37 PM
What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
(07-03-2013 01:15 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 12:39 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  This all comes down to "Things can't happen naturally without a supernatural cause. They have to be created"
It's also a deist kind of belief. The god sets things up and let's everything happen.
We haven't talked about all things. All we have talked about is evolution. Further no argument has yet been given that God used evolution to create anything. All that his been argued is that God could use evolution as a tool of creation by designing the fitness paradigm(as opposed to breeding or manipulating mutations).

So could Zeus. What's your point?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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07-03-2013, 01:48 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 01:52 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
(07-03-2013 01:37 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 01:15 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  We haven't talked about all things. All we have talked about is evolution. Further no argument has yet been given that God used evolution to create anything. All that his been argued is that God could use evolution as a tool of creation by designing the fitness paradigm(as opposed to breeding or manipulating mutations).

So could Zeus. What's your point?

My point is that Zeus(or any other sufficient intellect) could/can use evolution as a tool of creation. Evolution is guided by the fitness paradigm not blind as suggested by Dawkins. Correctly design the fitness paradigm, let evolution run, and the result will be what you desire.

Do you agree with the above claim?

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07-03-2013, 05:24 PM
What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
No. Neither god nor Zeus can do that.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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07-03-2013, 06:02 PM
RE: What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
(07-03-2013 01:48 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 01:37 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  So could Zeus. What's your point?

My point is that Zeus(or any other sufficient intellect) could/can use evolution as a tool of creation. Evolution is guided by the fitness paradigm not blind as suggested by Dawkins. Correctly design the fitness paradigm, let evolution run, and the result will be what you desire.

Do you agree with the above claim?


No, there is no 'fitness paradigm'. You have presented no evidence or mechanism for its existence. Evolutionary biologists have presented copious evidence that evolution is not guided.

Please explain how your 'fitness paradigm' functions, where the information is stored, how it affects mutation, how it affects survival, how it affects reproduction, and so on.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-03-2013, 06:07 PM
RE: What do Richard Dawkins and the Intelligent Design movement have in common?
(07-03-2013 06:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 01:48 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  My point is that Zeus(or any other sufficient intellect) could/can use evolution as a tool of creation. Evolution is guided by the fitness paradigm not blind as suggested by Dawkins. Correctly design the fitness paradigm, let evolution run, and the result will be what you desire.

Do you agree with the above claim?


No, there is no 'fitness paradigm'. You have presented no evidence or mechanism for its existence. Evolutionary biologists have presented copious evidence that evolution is not guided.

Please explain how your 'fitness paradigm' functions, where the information is stored, how it affects mutation, how it affects survival, how it affects reproduction, and so on.
Chas, read the thread please. I have said several times already, fitness paradigm is the label for all the things or factors that go into selection. So for you to say that it doesn't exist is to say that there are no factors which go into selection.....which is silly. I suppose you could be saying that there are factors which go into selection but its is logically impossible to aggregate them and give them a label....but that position is equally silly.

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