What do we know?
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22-10-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: What do we know?
(22-10-2013 02:30 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 02:20 PM)morondog Wrote:  What it does do is provide a beautiful, testable theory of *how* we got here without external agency. I think lots of people would feel that God as described in the Bible was pretty obviously a human constructed thing, but as soon as someone said "how did we get here without God then ?" they'd have to (well they wouldn't *have to* but I'm guessing people would have speculated) postulate some very vague idea of how it 'just happened' due to natural laws. Or they could go the deism route of 'well, someone made us but that someone is not your stupid vengeful petty Yahweh"... which sounds a lot more reasonable by comparison.

Evolution has been logically understood for eons, it just wasn't part of science and didn't have a lot of scientific proof.

Evolution could be directly observed by farmers and breeders of various plants and animals. Selective breeding has been around for a long time.

Selective breeding is exactly the same as evolution, only that humans are expediting it, or giving it a new direction. But it is a direct demo of how evolution happens.

It's the watchmaker's fallacy. Plus while selective breeding was used for centuries it wasn't until Gregor Mendel that the concept of genes was even proposed. Anyway for those of truly weak faith (the biblical literalist)who must have everything in their book be true or their world falls apart Science is the work of Satan. People of stronger faith (KC for instance) can admit that huge swaths of the bible is impossible and merely parable. That is why the most adamant apologists always start with evolution.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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22-10-2013, 02:48 PM
RE: What do we know?
(22-10-2013 02:30 PM)Dom Wrote:  Evolution has been logically understood for eons, it just wasn't part of science and didn't have a lot of scientific proof.

Evolution could be directly observed by farmers and breeders of various plants and animals. Selective breeding has been around for a long time.

Selective breeding is exactly the same as evolution, only that humans are expediting it, or giving it a new direction. But it is a direct demo of how evolution happens.

Breeding AFAIK has been known about since the time of the Romans or earlier. But from what I've read Darwin was the first to postulate that breeding could result in a whole new species.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-10-2013, 03:24 PM
RE: What do we know?
(22-10-2013 02:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 02:30 PM)Dom Wrote:  Evolution has been logically understood for eons, it just wasn't part of science and didn't have a lot of scientific proof.

Evolution could be directly observed by farmers and breeders of various plants and animals. Selective breeding has been around for a long time.

Selective breeding is exactly the same as evolution, only that humans are expediting it, or giving it a new direction. But it is a direct demo of how evolution happens.

Breeding AFAIK has been known about since the time of the Romans or earlier. But from what I've read Darwin was the first to postulate that breeding could result in a whole new species.

Yep. And immense variation - just put a Chihuahua next to a Great Dane.

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22-10-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: What do we know?
Indeed, but no one made the link between human controlled selective breeding of members of a single species and new species arising in nature until IIRC around the time of Darwin a lot of people started having ideas along these lines at roughly the same time...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-10-2013, 04:42 PM
RE: What do we know?
The key is to stop thinking of God as a wight magician in the sky with a long beard.
Think of God as something unfettered from yet wholly part of the Multiverse.
Again, impossible to quite explain or witness, harder to put in words, but evidence is all around us. And (yet again Thumbsup ) I believe in evolution, judging the other options...

LOL!

Any questions I forgot to answer ( we really should move Q&A to a different topic! Smile )
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22-10-2013, 04:50 PM
RE: What do we know?
(22-10-2013 04:42 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  The key is to stop thinking of God as a wight magician in the sky with a long beard.
Think of God as something unfettered from yet wholly part of the Multiverse.
Again, impossible to quite explain or witness, harder to put in words, but evidence is all around us. And (yet again Thumbsup ) I believe in evolution, judging the other options...

LOL!

Any questions I forgot to answer ( we really should move Q&A to a different topic! Smile )

The_Thinking_Deist?

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22-10-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: What do we know?
(22-10-2013 04:42 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  The key is to stop thinking of God as a wight magician in the sky with a long beard.
Think of God as something unfettered from yet wholly part of the Multiverse.
Again, impossible to quite explain or witness, harder to put in words, but evidence is all around us. And (yet again Thumbsup ) I believe in evolution, judging the other options...

LOL!

Any questions I forgot to answer ( we really should move Q&A to a different topic! Smile )

I think you are making a few unfounded but non-disprovable assumptions. We could quibble over them but since you are stating a positive position and I am stating that no evidence has yet shown such a position to be true burden of proof is on you.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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22-10-2013, 05:04 PM
RE: What do we know?
(22-10-2013 04:54 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 04:42 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  The key is to stop thinking of God as a wight magician in the sky with a long beard.
Think of God as something unfettered from yet wholly part of the Multiverse.
Again, impossible to quite explain or witness, harder to put in words, but evidence is all around us. And (yet again Thumbsup ) I believe in evolution, judging the other options...

LOL!

Any questions I forgot to answer ( we really should move Q&A to a different topic! Smile )

I think you are making a few unfounded but non-disprovable assumptions. We could quibble over them but since you are stating a positive position and I am stating that no evidence has yet shown such a position to be true burden of proof is on you.

'The burden of proof' is a phrase often used by atheists, that I find completely meaningless. The proof is everywhere, ready to be realized by a change in the state of mind. Kind of like opening up your mind. Could you please use a different phrase besides burden of proof? I think I'll get your drift better.

Thanks!

The_Thinking_Theist
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22-10-2013, 05:10 PM
RE: What do we know?
(22-10-2013 04:42 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  The key is to stop thinking of God as a wight magician in the sky with a long beard.

So does this mean you want people to stop using their imagination? If I picture something in my mind, I'm using my imagination.

Quote:Think of God as something unfettered from yet wholly part of the Multiverse.

But then you want people to use their imagination to perceive what your imagination perceives your god to be?

Quote:Again, impossible to quite explain or witness, harder to put in words, but evidence is all around us. And (yet again Thumbsup ) I believe in evolution, judging the other options...

So imagination and evidence are the same thing to you?

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22-10-2013, 05:12 PM
RE: What do we know?
(22-10-2013 05:04 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 04:54 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I think you are making a few unfounded but non-disprovable assumptions. We could quibble over them but since you are stating a positive position and I am stating that no evidence has yet shown such a position to be true burden of proof is on you.

'The burden of proof' is a phrase often used by atheists, that I find completely meaningless. The proof is everywhere, ready to be realized by a change in the state of mind. Kind of like opening up your mind. Could you please use a different phrase besides burden of proof? I think I'll get your drift better.

Thanks!

The_Thinking_Theist

You are claiming an outside agency is responsible for everything, I have not seen any proof of that. Simply making proclamations is not proof. Now if you wish to further you argument from nature or cosmology then we could begin to discuss it but until you actually put forth a claim there is nothing to discuss. That is what burden of proof means.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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