What do you think is you?
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17-06-2014, 04:45 PM
RE: What do you think is you?
My brain in another body would not have the same feelings or the same sensory nuances, even if this new body were stimulated the same way as the former body. I'm pretty certain I would notice the difference. It would be a cool experience... but it would be a different experience than me.

For instance, I think it would suck if I couldn't taste things the same way I do with these taste buds. To some people, cilantro/coriander can have a soapy taste but it's not that way for others... not me.

It would suck if I got a body with taste buds that didn't get get off on certain cheeses or root beer, the way mine do. Or a nose that didn't smell things... or a touch that didn't feel... or eyes that didn't see... or ears that didn't hear... the way I do.

My senses make me and I also think what happens between the body and the brain/mind has a lot to do with it.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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17-06-2014, 04:45 PM
RE: What do you think is you?
(19-05-2014 12:01 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  So far as we know we're the only consciousness conscious of the fact that it's conscious.

Really? How do you know that?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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17-06-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: What do you think is you?
(17-06-2014 04:45 PM)kim Wrote:  My brain in another body would not have the same feelings or the same sensory nuances, even if this new body were stimulated the same way as the former body. I'm pretty certain I would notice the difference. It would be a cool experience... but it would be a different experience than me.

For instance, I think it would suck if I couldn't taste things the same way I do with these taste buds. To some people, cilantro/coriander can have a soapy taste but it's not that way for others... not me.

It would suck if I got a body with taste buds that didn't get get off on certain cheeses or root beer, the way mine do. Or a nose that didn't smell things... or a touch that didn't feel... or eyes that didn't see... or ears that didn't hear... the way I do.

My senses make me and I also think what happens between the body and the brain/mind has a lot to do with it.

Or do things all taste/smell etc. the same to other bodies and it's just your brain inserting pleasantness or unpleasantness associated with specific sensations? The brain connecting sensory input with previous experiences?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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17-06-2014, 04:55 PM
RE: What do you think is you?
(17-06-2014 04:45 PM)Dom Wrote:  ... "So far as we know we're the only consciousness conscious of the fact that it's conscious."

Really? How do you know that?

We don't, which is why I said "as far as" we know. But I haven't Googled the notion and there very well may be species that show evidence of being aware that they're aware.

Were that the case, I'd think a self conscious species would develop a complex language to be able to communicate the experience, which if found would offer the promise of deeper inter-species communication than "Fetch, Rover!" A discovery like that could turn a lot of us into vegetarians overnight.
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17-06-2014, 04:57 PM
RE: What do you think is you?
(17-06-2014 04:48 PM)Dom Wrote:  Or do things all taste/smell etc. the same to other bodies and it's just your brain inserting pleasantness or unpleasantness associated with specific sensations? The brain connecting sensory input with previous experiences?

I don't know... I think what happens between the sensation and the brain is part of what makes up identity.

It's like ... there is a difference between how a steak tastes, and how a steak tastes after you let it rest. Nuance. I would say nuance = identity.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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17-06-2014, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2014 05:21 PM by Dom.)
RE: What do you think is you?
(17-06-2014 04:55 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(17-06-2014 04:45 PM)Dom Wrote:  ... "So far as we know we're the only consciousness conscious of the fact that it's conscious."

Really? How do you know that?

We don't, which is why I said "as far as" we know. But I haven't Googled the notion and there very well may be species that show evidence of being aware that they're aware.

Were that the case, I'd think a self conscious species would develop a complex language to be able to communicate the experience, which if found would offer the promise of deeper inter-species communication than "Fetch, Rover!" A discovery like that could turn a lot of us into vegetarians overnight.

So if we don't know, why do you err on the side that we are not the same as all other animals? Why don't you use as base assumption that all animals are alike? Or maybe at least ones with the same basic central nervous system, brain structure and hormonal household?

Communication is a whole other ball game. Other animals communicate with members of their own species exactly as much as needed, they do just fine.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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17-06-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: What do you think is you?
Something far more than I imagine myself to be. Closest analogy I can think of is as Pilot is to Moya in Farscape.

(19-05-2014 12:01 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  So far as we know we're the only consciousness conscious of the fact that it's conscious

I don't think that's right. Animal species that have been observed to pass the mirror test.

#sigh
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17-06-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: What do you think is you?
This thread is reminding me of Cory Doctrow's "Flowers from Alice," one of the strangest Posthuman Sci-Fi shorts I've read.

Excerpt:

Quote:I don't know why I invited Al to my wedding. Nostalgia, maybe. Residual lust. She was the first girl I ever kissed, after all. You never forget your first. I couldn't help but turn my head when round-hipped, tall girls with pageboy hair walked by, hunched over their own breasts in terminal pubescent embarrassment, awkward and athletic at the same time. You don't get much of that these days outside of Amish country, no parent would choose to have a kid who was quite so visibly strange as Al had been as a teenager, but there were still examples of the genre to be had, if you looked hard enough, and they stirred something within me.
I couldn't forget Al, though it had been twenty years since that sweet and sloppy kiss on the beach, ten years since I'd run into her last, so severely post- that I hardly recognized her. Wasn't a week went by that she didn't wander through my imagination, evoking a lip-quirk that wasn't a smile by about three notches. My to-be recognized it; it drove her up the wall, and she let me know about it during post-coital self-criticism sessions.

[/hide]It was a very wrong idea to invite Al to the wedding, but the wedding itself was a bad idea, to be perfectly frank. And I won't take all the blame for it, since Al decided to show up, after all, if "decided" can be applied to someone as post- as she (s/he?) (they?) [(s|t)/he(y)?] was by then. But one morning as we sat at our pre-nuptual breakfast table, my to-be and me, and spooned marmalade on our muffins and watched the hummingbirds visit the feeder outside our nook's window, one morning as we sat naked and sated and sticky with marmalade and other fluids, one morning I looked into my fiancee's eyes and I prodded at the phone tattooed on my wrist and dialed a directory server and began to recite the facts of Al's life into my hollow tooth in full earshot of my lovely lovely intended until the directory had enough information to identify Al from among all the billions of humans and trillions of multiplicitous post-humans that it knew about and the phone rang in my hollow tooth and I was talking to Al.

"Al," I said, "Alice? Is that you? It's Cyd!"

There was no sound on the end of the line because when you're as self-consciously post- as Al, you don't make unintentional sound, so there was no sharp intake of breath or other cue to her reaction to this voice from her past, but she answered finally and said, "Cyd, wonderful, it's been too long," and the voice was warm and nuanced and rich as any human voice but more so, tailored for the strengths and acoustics of my skull and mouth which she had no doubt induced from the characteristics of the other end of the conversation. "You're getting married, huh? She sounds wonderful. And you, you're doing well too. Well! I should say so. Cyd, it's good to hear from you. Of course one of me will come to your wedding. Can we help? Say we can! I, oh, the caterer, no, you don't want to use that caterer, she's booked for another wedding the day before and a wedding *and* a Bar Mitzvah the day after, you know, so, please, let me help! I'm sending over a logistics plan now, I just evolved it for you, it's very optimal, you don't have to use it, of course, though you should really."[/hide]

And my to-be shook her head and answered *her* phone and said, "Why hello, Alice! No, Cyd sprang this on me without warning -- one of his little surprises. Yes, i can see you're talking to him, too. Of course, I'd love to see the plans, it was so good of you to come up with them. Yes, yes, of course. And you'll bring a date, won't you?"

Meanwhile, in my tooth, Al's still nattering on, "You don't mind, do you? I respawned and put in a call to your beautiful lady. I'm resynching with the copy every couple instants, so I can tell you we're getting along famously, Cyd, you always did have such great taste but you're *hopeless* with logistics. I see the job is going well, I knew you'd be an excellent polemicist, and it's such a vital function in your social milieu!"

http://craphound.com/unwirer/archives/000001.html

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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17-06-2014, 06:44 PM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2014 06:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What do you think is you?
(12-06-2014 09:32 PM)Beena Jain Wrote:  I am my mind, not my brain. The brain simply processes information, but the mind is the reservoir of information and is wirelessly accessed by the body. Upon death, the brain dies with the body, but the mind does not. We live on, life goes on. Our spirit is like our mind that lives on. If a surgeon was to transplant two brains with each other, they would still be themselves but the processing of info may have differences according to how the brain functions, yet the people would feel themselves, not any different, for their mind would be the same, the reservoir of info would still be the same.

Unfortunately for you, there is not a shred of evidence for "mind". We know that damaged brain structures alter mental capacities. If there were such a thing as "mind" it would continue to work the same, no matter what happened. Traumatic brain injuries PROVE you are totally wrong. "You" are the physical/chemical pathways that are activated when sensory input references your memory. "You" would not be "you" without your unique past and genetic structures which determine how your memory works. We know some things about how memories are stored chemically. ALL that STOPS with death. There is no proposed mechanism for post-mortem preservation, and you have not proposed one.

Bonobos and dolphins are self-aware. Do they have "minds" ? How do we know they are not conscious of being conscious ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-06-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: What do you think is you?
(17-06-2014 06:44 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-06-2014 09:32 PM)Beena Jain Wrote:  I am my mind, not my brain. The brain simply processes information, but the mind is the reservoir of information and is wirelessly accessed by the body. Upon death, the brain dies with the body, but the mind does not. We live on, life goes on. Our spirit is like our mind that lives on. If a surgeon was to transplant two brains with each other, they would still be themselves but the processing of info may have differences according to how the brain functions, yet the people would feel themselves, not any different, for their mind would be the same, the reservoir of info would still be the same.

Unfortunately for you, there is not a shred of evidence for "mind".

Not only that but there are zero plausible mechanisms of action to date for dualism, let alone anything even remotely tenable.

#sigh
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