What does religion have to offer that atheism lacks?
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03-07-2016, 12:15 PM
RE: What does religion have to offer that atheism lacks?
(03-07-2016 11:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 11:08 AM)Anjele Wrote:  Blink

The bottom line of your well-being poll is that we are all at about the same place regardless of religiosity.

So why the efforts to get others to buy into your belief system? What will that gain anyone? A fraction of a point on some totally subjective poll...whoopdefuckingdoo.

I don't care whether others here buy into my belief system and not, and spend next to time trying to convince anyone of it. I'm more interested in those who suggest that children are more empathetic when non-religious, or that being raised religious has detrimental affects on a child as opposed to being raised non-religious. In those who believe that a child raised in a typical christian home, are bound to less happy, than those raised in a godless home.

Then why not spend the time understanding the psychological or sicilougial research upon some studies that demonstrate things on those realms people believe and the opposite.

Or are you really just interested in your own conclusions on why people think things than being actually interested in those suggestions.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-07-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: What does religion have to offer that atheism lacks?
Religion offers nothing that a non believer cant do. Now that is not to say by proxy all atheists are automatically moral, it is only to say that religion is superfluous and that our species ability to be cruel or compassionate isn't coming out of an old book or a label. Humans still are ultimately individuals first, and our species behavior has always been in our evolution, not labels.

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03-07-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: What does religion have to offer that atheism lacks?
(03-07-2016 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The problem with humanism, is that's it not very appealing, beyond wearing a pin, or an occasional bumper sticker.

That is a ridiculous statement on every level.

Quote:Humanism in an organized sense, has as much trouble, if not more trouble, putting people in their pews, as liberal/progressive christian churches do.

What pews?

Quote:The attitude towards it, seems more or less seeing it as benign and harmless,

No, humanism is an active philosophy that benefits people, and humanists do not need to gather every week to affirm that.

Quote:but not necessarily attractive, or appealing enough to join a humanist organization, or evoke committed participation.

So what?

Quote:You'll have more people interested in joining an internet group like this one, than attending a humanist service.

What is a humanist service?

Quote:At least with churches, you have a community, sermons, revolving around concepts of everyday life, like forgiveness, love, goodness, charity, models to aspire to, songs that people feel moved by, passion. And contrary to popular imagination you're typical sunday service, is not devoted to preaching fire and brim stone, or about the fear of death.

The motivation to stick with it is likely the hope and fear of an afterlife.

There are all kinds of social groups that provide the benfits of community without requiring some metaphysical basis.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-07-2016, 01:35 PM
RE: What does religion have to offer that atheism lacks?
(03-07-2016 01:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  What pews?...What is a humanist service?

The variety of humansist gatherings, hosted in various towns across the country, usually involving lunch at Olive Garden, or watching some related movie, or listening to some secular speaker, that gathers maybe 5-10 people on any given weekend in a city as large as Philadelphia.

I'm guessing you never attended one of these.

Quote:No, humanism is an active philosophy that benefits people, and humanists do not need to gather every week to affirm that.

It's an inactive philosophy, you can summarize it as be nice, or sing the words to kumbya, or some generic shit like that, if you want to, but nothing anyone need pledge to, or be committed to, just occasionally pat themselves on the back about. It's as negligible as the morality of any disney story, but even less compelling. More like one those nauseating bad moralistic films, on par with a Nicholas Sparks' novel.

Entirely benign and forgettable, so much so that you apparently didn't even know they hold gatherings, invite participation, and request donations for their basic functioning and causes.

Quote:The motivation to stick with it is likely the hope and fear of an afterlife.

Probably not, most people aren't that obsessed with their own death, to invest themselves for the sake of some afterlife reward or punishment. If churches were banking on motivating people to stay in the pews with thoughts of the afterlife, they would have been abandoned a long time ago. They seek hope and transcendence in the life here and now, more so than in the life here after.

Quote:There are all kinds of social groups that provide the benfits of community without requiring some metaphysical basis.

Religions tends to die when the need for such social groups decline in general, in areas where the state has took over for many of the functions once held together by such groups, when the idea of community has been replaced by individualism. Religion is less appealing to the man who prefers his isolation, to be a loner, than to those looking to a be a part of a community. Less appealing to the solitude old man on the farm, who takes comfort in his detachment. And for those who seek to disintegrate into the objective self they're so infatuated with.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-07-2016, 01:57 PM
RE: What does religion have to offer that atheism lacks?
(03-07-2016 01:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 01:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  What pews?...What is a humanist service?

The variety of humansist gatherings, hosted in various towns across the country, usually involving lunch at Olive Garden, or watching some related movie, or listening to some secular speaker, that gathers maybe 5-10 people on any given weekend in a city as large as Philadelphia.

I'm guessing you never attended one of these.

Never have because they are unnecessary. I find community elsewhere.

And 5 - 10 people in a city the size of Philadelphia? Statistically, those meetings don't exist. This is not comparable to religious services in the slightest.

Quote:
Quote:No, humanism is an active philosophy that benefits people, and humanists do not need to gather every week to affirm that.

It's an inactive philosophy, you can summarize it as be nice, or sing the words to kumbya, or some generic shit like that, if you want to, but nothing anyone need pledge to, or be committed to, just occasionally pat themselves on the back about.

It is a driving philosophy for political action and for ethical treatment of people.
How about the U.N. Charter of Rights, a thoroughly humanist charter signed on to by nations.

Quote:It's as negligible as the morality of any disney story, but even less compelling. More like one those nauseating bad moralistic films, on par with a Nicholas Sparks' novel.

Facepalm

Quote:Entirely benign and forgettable, so much so that you apparently didn't even know they hold gatherings, invite participation, and request donations for their basic functioning and causes.

OK, that is one of the most absurd statements you've mad in a while. It is a complete non sequitur.

Quote:
Quote:The motivation to stick with it is likely the hope and fear of an afterlife.

Probably not, most people aren't that obsessed with their own death, to invest themselves for the sake of some afterlife reward or punishment. If churches were banking on motivating people to stay in the pews with thoughts of the afterlife, they would have been abandoned a long time ago. They seek hope and transcendence in the life here and now, more so than in the life here after.

It is a basic tenet of Christian theology. Aren't you a Christian?
It is a basic tenet of Muslim theology, as well.

Quote:
Quote:There are all kinds of social groups that provide the benfits of community without requiring some metaphysical basis.

Religions tends to die when the need for such social groups decline in general, in areas where the state has took over for many of the functions once held together by such groups, when the idea of community has been replaced by individualism.

Citations are required.

Quote:Religion is less appealing to the man who prefers his isolation, to be a loner, than to those looking to a be a part of a community.

Ah, yes. Back to your passive-aggressive schtick

Quote:Less appealing to the solitude old man on the farm, who takes comfort in his detachment.

And doubling-down on it.

Quote:And for those who seek to disintegrate into the objective self they're so infatuated with.

You really are an asshole.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-07-2016, 07:46 PM
RE: What does religion have to offer that atheism lacks?
(03-07-2016 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The problem with humanism, is that's it not very appealing, beyond wearing a pin, or an occasional bumper sticker.
I'm not quite certain that you understand exactly what "humanism" is. Formally, humanism is defined as "a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and which adopts critical thinking and evidence over acceptance of dogma or superstition".

Quote:Humanism in an organized sense, has as much trouble, if not more trouble, putting people in their pews, as liberal/progressive christian churches do.
This is meaningless. You're attempting to conflate an individual state of mind (humanistic) with the organised [sic] churches' ancient dogma, ostentatious ceremony, and patronising preaching. And your term "progressive Christian church" is a classic oxymoron LOL.

Quote:The attitude towards it, seems more or less seeing it as benign and harmless, but not necessarily attractive, or appealing enough to join a humanist organization, or evoke committed participation.
And once again you lump people who have a humanistic view of life into some sort of organised, cohesive, singular group—like you do with atheism. Individual, personal philosophies of life such as atheism, skepticism, and humanism can never be equated to formalised religion—which is based largely on group think and fear (and money!) for its survival.

Quote:You'll have more people interested in joining an internet group like this one, than attending a humanist service.
Uh... a humanist "service"? WTF?

Quote:At least with churches, you have a community, sermons, revolving around concepts of everyday life, like forgiveness, love, goodness, charity, models to aspire to, songs that people feel moved by, passion.
A socially isolated "community" listening to condescending "sermons" from some bloke who relies on a fairy story cobbled together more than 2,000 years ago. "Goodness" and "charity" such as killing homosexuals and denying abortions. Dreary funereal songs that propose the same old hackneyed pseudo-existentialism (in taking responsibility for the consequences of one's acts) bullshit.

Quote:And contrary to popular imagination you're typical Sunday service, is not devoted to preaching fire and brim stone, or about the fear of death.
Part of it most definitely is. The fear of an eternity in hell is one of the major ways the churches maintain their power over the gullible.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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04-07-2016, 11:23 AM
RE: What does religion have to offer that atheism lacks?
I think that one of the main ideologies of atheism is to be free from the shackles of communities and the limitations they promote in the first place. I cannot argue that the sense of community isn't better felt within religious cults, but that doesn't mean we lack one, it's just different. Religious communities are more concentrated, more advanced (they think), and they are all confined to a single system of belief that varies so little and is not subject to development, which makes them stronger as a whole. We're individuals free to think, present arguments, discuss them, improve them, and put them out there. Something that religious communities lack. So I think it all depends on one's own definition of the word "Community". It's there for both parties, but one is just less conspicuous than the other.
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