What does science say about firearms?
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09-10-2017, 04:25 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(09-10-2017 03:54 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(06-10-2017 06:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  But would there be fewer suicides? The U.S. ranks about 33rd in suicide rate.

Don't know, but that's not really the point here.
There would likely be far fewer suicides by gun.

Sometimes you have to fight one battle at a time.

But what if it is a pointless battle? If the number of suicides is not reduced, there is no "win".

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2017, 04:31 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 04:35 PM by Chas.)
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(09-10-2017 04:21 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 09:36 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  If we banned guns today, suicidal people would still kill themselves (Japan has 30,000 suicides a year with no guns). If we banned guns today, criminal druggies/gangs would still use them like they do in every other country where guns are banned.
This is a specious argument. For one thing, I haven't seen anyone arguing for an outright "ban" on guns. Gun control != gun ban.
For another, if you take this argument to its logical conclusion, then there's no point in attempting to control anything, nor in having any laws.

No, that is not the logical conclusion. We already have gun control, we are discussing the extent of it, not its existence.

Quote:"If you make guns illegal, people who really want them will still find ways to get them" -- right.

Why have drivers' licenses? People who want to drive will do it with or without them. Why have a law against burglary? People who want to steal will still find ways to break into houses. Why have laws against rape? People who want to rape will still do it.

Sure, some people still die by firearm in countries where firearm ownership is limited.
Nonetheless, the US has the 10th highest per capita rate of death by firearm of 75 countries -- we are surpassed only by a handful of banana republics and island dictatorships. Of the world's top 20 most developed countries, we are number 1: we have the highest rate of firearm death per capita.

People here are calling for banning civilian ownership of whole classes of firearms, so there's that.

And, if everything but single-shot firearms were banned it would likely have no effect on suicide by firearm.
Suicides are accomplished with one shot.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2017, 04:35 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
Quote:Suicides are accomplished with one shot.

Hopefully.
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09-10-2017, 05:48 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(09-10-2017 04:35 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:Suicides are accomplished with one shot.

Hopefully.

But you gotta admire the dedication where it takes a full magazine...



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09-10-2017, 06:16 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(09-10-2017 04:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  But what if it is a pointless battle? If the number of suicides is not reduced, there is no "win".

Didn't I presented strong evidence thanks to 4 different studies that does show that stronger gun control laws result in lower successful suicide in general? The four studies I have linked are only a few examples and there are multiple other studies that demonstrate that you can lower suicide rates by making firearm more difficult to obtain or simply by forcing people to keep their weapons outside of their home. The number of suicide is reduced; there is a ''win''. You can argue that this ''win'' isn't worth its cost, but you cannot reasonnably argue that there is no ''win'' since there seems to be overwhelming evidence of the opposite.

PS: it's also good to note that many studies show that more strict gun control laws also reduce the number of murder linked to domestic violence.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs....93.7.1089

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJ...#t=article

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09-10-2017, 09:33 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 09:40 PM by Chas.)
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(09-10-2017 06:16 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 04:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  But what if it is a pointless battle? If the number of suicides is not reduced, there is no "win".

Didn't I presented strong evidence thanks to 4 different studies that does show that stronger gun control laws result in lower successful suicide in general? The four studies I have linked are only a few examples and there are multiple other studies that demonstrate that you can lower suicide rates by making firearm more difficult to obtain or simply by forcing people to keep their weapons outside of their home. The number of suicide is reduced; there is a ''win''. You can argue that this ''win'' isn't worth its cost, but you cannot reasonnably argue that there is no ''win'' since there seems to be overwhelming evidence of the opposite.

PS: it's also good to note that many studies show that more strict gun control laws also reduce the number of murder linked to domestic violence.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs....93.7.1089

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJ...#t=article

Please note that those studies are based on multivariate scenarios, e.g. the homes had drug-users, or alcohol abuse or step-children or love triangles, and although the authors state that they controlled for these, it may be a biased sample. Would there have been fewer homicides by gun without the gun? I think so. Consider

What gun control laws will keep guns out of the hands of those least able to be trusted with them?
In Massachusetts:
  • guns in the home must be secured (gun-lock, locked case or cabinet) unless under direct control;
  • the purchase of a gun requires licensing;
  • the possession of a gun requires a license;
  • licensing requires a safety course;
  • licensing requires a three-level background check (local, state, and federal);
  • ammunition purchase requires a firearms license;
  • ammunition possession requires a firearms license;
Not every state has such requirements. Do these sensible laws have the desired effect?
The murder rate in Massachusetts ranks #44 in the U.S.
Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire which have little or no gun licensing rank #47, #48, and #50, respectively.
What these states do have in common is educated populations, decent economies, and low religiosity.
Nearby New York and Connecticut with more restrictive gun laws have higher murder rates, #35 and #33.

Washington, D.C. has among the most restrictive gun laws. It ranks #1 in murder rate.

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09-10-2017, 10:00 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
@Chas

Your comparison of States on their murder rates and gun control laws cannot prove (or disprove) anything due to the fact that it doesn't take into account a multitude of variable that have more impact than gun control laws on the level of crime or suicide in a community. In fact, its pretty much a red herring. It completly fails to address the conclusion reached by the studies on homicide linked to domestic violence and even more to address those concerning suicide. No, gun control laws aren't a panacea to socio-economical problems, but they can be a step in the right direction to limit suicides and homicide linked to domestic violence according to an overwhelming amount of the scientific litterature I have found on the subject so far.

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09-10-2017, 10:14 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(09-10-2017 10:00 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Chas

Your comparison of States on their murder rates and gun control laws cannot prove (or disprove) anything due to the fact that it doesn't take into account a multitude of variable that have more impact than gun control laws on the level of crime or suicide in a community. In fact, its pretty much a red herring. It completly fails to address the conclusion reached by the studies on homicide linked to domestic violence and even more to address those concerning suicide. No, gun control laws aren't a panacea to socio-economical problems, but they can be a step in the right direction to limit suicides and homicide linked to domestic violence according to an overwhelming amount of the scientific litterature I have found on the subject so far.

It is not a red herring to point out the weak correlation between gun control laws and murder rates.

I'm not particularly fussed about suicide as it is a human right to terminate one's own life.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2017, 10:27 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(09-10-2017 10:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is not a red herring to point out the weak correlation between gun control laws and murder rates.

Of course, it would not be a red herring to point the weak correlation between gun control laws and homicide rates, but the way you are attempting it is since it relies on a simple manipulation of statistic that fails to include any form of context, thus informed and valid conclusion. If you wanted to demonstrate a weak link between homicide rates and murder rates, you should point out to a study that reveals such a weak correlation but which provide a measure of context as to avoid uncontrolled variable spoiling the conclusion. Furthermore, I didn't claim that gun controls laws had a strong impact on murder rates, but on homicide linked to domestic violence, a subset of murder.

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10-10-2017, 05:41 AM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(09-10-2017 10:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 10:00 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Chas

Your comparison of States on their murder rates and gun control laws cannot prove (or disprove) anything due to the fact that it doesn't take into account a multitude of variable that have more impact than gun control laws on the level of crime or suicide in a community. In fact, its pretty much a red herring. It completly fails to address the conclusion reached by the studies on homicide linked to domestic violence and even more to address those concerning suicide. No, gun control laws aren't a panacea to socio-economical problems, but they can be a step in the right direction to limit suicides and homicide linked to domestic violence according to an overwhelming amount of the scientific litterature I have found on the subject so far.

It is not a red herring to point out the weak correlation between gun control laws and murder rates.

I'm not particularly fussed about suicide as it is a human right to terminate one's own life.
I've noted it that some people are in favor of " death with dignity," but call suicide with a gun " gun violence ".

Consider

I guess they only think it' s acceptable if you do it quietly, in a bed......


....

Makes you wonder how boring their sex life is, doesn't it??

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