What does science say about firearms?
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05-10-2017, 10:09 AM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 09:25 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 08:28 AM)BryanS Wrote:  Presumably if 40% of households had pools, there would be 4.44 times as many deaths by pool as there currently are. You can't compare death rates by only looking at the total quantity of people who die and not adjusting for how many are subjected to that risk. That is why most such statistics are cited in deaths per 1000 or some such format.

Your statistic actually suggest the opposite of your conclusion--there would be over 2500 deaths from pools if there were as many households with pools as those with guns. A heck of a lot more people die every day driving their car, and we do not consider cars riskier than guns, do we?

Can you loose your fire license because you are drunk? That's genuine question. We all know that driking and driving is extremely dangerous and that you can loose your license or even face jail time for drinking and driving. In my part, the stereotype of the drunk hunter who can't catch shit is rather popular. I suspect that a lot of gun accident can be related to the person in question being intoxicated. If I am openly carrying a gun in legal fashion and I happen to also be drunk, can my open carry license be revoked?

Will you will lose a CCW if carrying drunk in public in Michigan? ( assuming you get caught doing so). Yup. Automatically.

If you were carrying open while drunk???

It could depend on the situation, and where you were carrying. On your own property, and you are doing nothing else wrong?? Unlikely you would have a problem.. In a public place?? Safe bet - you're going to be inside, looking out for a while... And if they decide you are an asshole, you probably will get charged with a felony - which means when you're done doing your time, you won't be able to legally own guns, much less carry them...

.......................................

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05-10-2017, 10:28 AM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
Drunk and disorderly while carrying a firearm? I'd be pretty damn worried.
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05-10-2017, 11:27 AM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(04-10-2017 03:36 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(04-10-2017 12:44 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  IMO pointing out that a swimming pool is around 100 times more likely to result in a fatality is useful in putting things into perspective.

That may have once been true.
However, the stats at the link you gave are 20 years old.

More recent stats show:

There are an estimated 112.5 million occupied private homes in the US.
About 10.4 million of them have swimming pools (~9%).
About 45 million of them have guns (40%). (This doesn't include guns owned by people living in public housing.)

About 565 children in the US die in residential swimming pool accidents, each year. (About 80% of 770 total annual drownings).

Around 1300 children in the US die as a result of firearms, each year.

Pools: 9% of homes; 565 deaths
Firearms: 40% of homes; 1300 deaths

Meaning that a child in the US is 2.3 times more likely to be killed by a firearm than by drowning in a residential swimming pool.

No, do the math. The death rate for pools is greater.
If 40% of homes had pools, 2511 children would drown.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-10-2017, 11:38 AM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
That's not good science because pools are much bigger than guns.
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05-10-2017, 11:39 AM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 09:25 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 08:28 AM)BryanS Wrote:  Presumably if 40% of households had pools, there would be 4.44 times as many deaths by pool as there currently are. You can't compare death rates by only looking at the total quantity of people who die and not adjusting for how many are subjected to that risk. That is why most such statistics are cited in deaths per 1000 or some such format.

Your statistic actually suggest the opposite of your conclusion--there would be over 2500 deaths from pools if there were as many households with pools as those with guns. A heck of a lot more people die every day driving their car, and we do not consider cars riskier than guns, do we?

Can you loose your fire license because you are drunk? That's genuine question. We all know that driking and driving is extremely dangerous and that you can loose your license or even face jail time for drinking and driving. In my part, the stereotype of the drunk hunter who can't catch shit is rather popular. I suspect that a lot of gun accident can be related to the person in question being intoxicated. If I am openly carrying a gun in legal fashion and I happen to also be drunk, can my open carry license be revoked?

I don't think that currently happens. Should it? I'm not opposed to it. It may be more difficult to pass such a law that will survive court challenges though.

My only point in posting though was to point out erroneous interpretation of statistics. I do not own a gun, nor do I desire to. I don't have a problem with people deciding to own guns.

There may be a lot of deaths due to guns, but I think the statistics on causes of death can be useful to put the issue of gun laws into perspective. Because the issue of gun laws is so politically divisive in the US, there are very few voices in the debate that offer perspective.
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05-10-2017, 12:08 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-10-2017 03:36 PM)Dr H Wrote:  That may have once been true.
However, the stats at the link you gave are 20 years old.

More recent stats show:

There are an estimated 112.5 million occupied private homes in the US.
About 10.4 million of them have swimming pools (~9%).
About 45 million of them have guns (40%). (This doesn't include guns owned by people living in public housing.)

About 565 children in the US die in residential swimming pool accidents, each year. (About 80% of 770 total annual drownings).

Around 1300 children in the US die as a result of firearms, each year.

Pools: 9% of homes; 565 deaths
Firearms: 40% of homes; 1300 deaths

Meaning that a child in the US is 2.3 times more likely to be killed by a firearm than by drowning in a residential swimming pool.

No, do the math. The death rate for pools is greater.
If 40% of homes had pools, 2511 children would drown.

Siri Jackass translator, "Other bad shit happens, so do nothing about this shit".

Again fuckface, try to carry a pool up to the 32nd floor of a hotel room and use it to shoot fish in a barrel.

Pool deaths happen?

"I'm Wolf Blitzer in the Situation Room, our top story tonight. SO THE FUCK WHAT?"

Hey, ever heard of the word MULTI TASK?

This is the same fucking bullshit denial like climate change.

You, "We need energy"

Me, "Me, I am not against energy"

You, "Yes you are you want to ban energy."

Me, "NO YOU STUPID FUCK, I want better laws".

Pools are unsafe? Yea ok, we should do something about that too. But it still remains you can't use a pool to murder 59 people in less than 12 minutes.

You'd be more honest if you simply admitted you are selfish and don't give a fuck.

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05-10-2017, 12:29 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 12:08 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, do the math. The death rate for pools is greater.
If 40% of homes had pools, 2511 children would drown.

Siri Jackass translator, "Other bad shit happens, so do nothing about this shit".

Again fuckface, try to carry a pool up to the 32nd floor of a hotel room and use it to shoot fish in a barrel.

Are you capable of conducting an argument without name-calling and profanity?

May I remind you that you started this thread with an argument about gun deaths in the home (saying nothing about mass shootings, etc.)? The swimming pool comparison is entirely appropriate in that context. Get a grip.
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05-10-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 12:08 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, do the math. The death rate for pools is greater.
If 40% of homes had pools, 2511 children would drown.

Siri Jackass translator, "Other bad shit happens, so do nothing about this shit".

Again fuckface, try to carry a pool up to the 32nd floor of a hotel room and use it to shoot fish in a barrel.

Pool deaths happen?

"I'm Wolf Blitzer in the Situation Room, our top story tonight. SO THE FUCK WHAT?"

Hey, ever heard of the word MULTI TASK?

This is the same fucking bullshit denial like climate change.

You, "We need energy"

Me, "Me, I am not against energy"

You, "Yes you are you want to ban energy."

Me, "NO YOU STUPID FUCK, I want better laws".

Pools are unsafe? Yea ok, we should do something about that too. But it still remains you can't use a pool to murder 59 people in less than 12 minutes.

You'd be more honest if you simply admitted you are selfish and don't give a fuck.

Bryan, fuck off. That post was about the math - nothing else.
Seriously, get a grip and read what people actually post.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-10-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 12:29 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 12:08 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Siri Jackass translator, "Other bad shit happens, so do nothing about this shit".

Again fuckface, try to carry a pool up to the 32nd floor of a hotel room and use it to shoot fish in a barrel.

Are you capable of conducting an argument without name-calling and profanity?

May I remind you that you started this thread with an argument about gun deaths in the home (saying nothing about mass shootings, etc.)? The swimming pool comparison is entirely appropriate in that context. Get a grip.

Yea because being called names is so much worse than being DEAD.

Sorry, but I DO take this personally, because when I was a kid, my dad got drunk off his ass and shot his 38 with me in the room. If it were not for my mom yanking me out of the house I could easily be a statistic.

AND my 1984 yearbook has a PICTURE of the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre in it.

I offended them? BOO AND FUCKING WHO

If they want to shut me up, then FUCKING DO SOMETHING because "thoughts and prayers" and "moments of silence" and "now is not the time"

IS NOT FUCKING WORKING.

You sound like the Pope defending the Hebdo attackers.

Point being, if our laws worked the way the gun worshipers said, NOBODY WOULD BE BITCHING.

If our laws worked the way they claimed we would not see this month after month, year after year decade after decade.

If their laws worked the way they claimed we would not have 93 of our fellow citizens dying EVERY FUCKING DAY.

I am sorry, but if you think getting cussed out is worse than dying, or worse than losing a loved one to gun violence, all I can say is, CHECK YOUR PRIORITIES.

Now, I would LOVE nothing more than not having to address this issue month after month and year after year and decade after decade.

But I don't want to fucking hear it. PLEASE shut me up AND DO SOMETHING. But what we are doing right now IS NOT FUCKING WORKING.

I am tired of the "sell more and do nothing" BULLSHIT.

PROVE IT, and when our death toll from firearms is say like that of Japan, then I'd be happy to shut up.

CHOP CHOP, but hollow cliches and platitudes and excuses are bullshit.

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05-10-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 12:40 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 12:29 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Are you capable of conducting an argument without name-calling and profanity?

May I remind you that you started this thread with an argument about gun deaths in the home (saying nothing about mass shootings, etc.)? The swimming pool comparison is entirely appropriate in that context. Get a grip.

.....

You sound like the Pope defending the Hebdo attackers.

.....

I'm not defending anyone. I'm informing you that you are acting like a jackass.

Go back and read your original post in this thread, and then read the responses. They are perfectly reasonable responses to the argument you were making. Responding to these with a stream of frothing-at-the-mouth profanity accomplishes nothing except to make you look like (a) someone who can't read, and/or (b) an asshole.

Also, it's not about hurting people's feelings. It's about hurting your own case, along with the case of anyone else who might argue for sane gun control (yes, that includes me). If you have an argument to make, make it coolly and calmly (like those who are arguing against you). Profanity convinces nobody. It's counterproductive. If that's all you've got, you would do the cause a great service by shutting up.

It's embarrassing to be on your side when you go out of your way to come across like an insane asshole.
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