What does science say about firearms?
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05-10-2017, 03:26 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 03:13 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, do the math. The death rate for pools is greater.
If 40% of homes had pools, 2511 children would drown.

See my reply to Brian.

40% of homes don't have pools; 9% do.

You can't drown in a "what if", but you can be killed by a real gun.

The "rate per risk" may be theoretically interesting, but practically it's irrelevant: in the real world, more than twice as many US kids die from firearms as from accidents in residential swimming pools.

True, but they have a point as well. The whole premise of this thread is a "what if": If you own a gun, the most likely person to be killed by that gun is yourself, and the second most likely is another family member (the OP wasn't phrased quite this way, but it's the same basic idea). Responders are simply pointing out that to the extent that this is a valid anti-gun argument, you can make the same argument against swimming pools, which are actually more of a danger than guns in a household that happens to have both. Your point and their point are both valid -- just different ways of looking at the same basic data.
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05-10-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 03:13 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I'm reading that right that the number of sober fatalities are way up?

Yeah, because the number of cars on the road has steadily increased.

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05-10-2017, 03:51 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 03:27 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 03:13 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I'm reading that right that the number of sober fatalities are way up?

Yeah, because the number of cars on the road has steadily increased.

But so has seatbelt use, airbags, and modern cars absorb more of the impact and handle better. I think you could use that data to argue that perhaps the alcohol consumption wasn't always a causal force in accidents where the driver had been drinking. Sober driver hits a drunk driver, drunk driver always takes the blame. It's stupid and irresponsible to drive drunk but that doesn't mean there isn't any hysteria skewing how we look at the data.
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05-10-2017, 04:05 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 03:51 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 03:27 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Yeah, because the number of cars on the road has steadily increased.

But so has seatbelt use, airbags, and modern cars absorb more of the impact and handle better. I think you could use that data to argue that perhaps the alcohol consumption wasn't always a causal force in accidents where the driver had been drinking. Sober driver hits a drunk driver, drunk driver always takes the blame. It's stupid and irresponsible to drive drunk but that doesn't mean there isn't any hysteria skewing how we look at the data.

Funny how everyone is arguing over regulations changing over time for other things, but some morons, not you, but the "originalists" want to use the same musket laws in the age of AR15s.

Again, the same insistence to clinging to old and bad laws was used by the oil industry to keep led in gas. The same bullshit that big tobacco tried to use to keep Joe Camel.

I love how my detractors think I am unreasonable and irrational. And that is the exact position I want them in thinking. Because any sane person would say RIGHTFULLY they dont want unreasonable and irrational people using firearms. WHO WOULD?

Problem is as soon as they do that, I point out that our laws as they currently stand would not prevent me from buying a firearm.

Point is, they cant have it both ways. They cant on the one hand argue RIGHTFULLY, firearms should be kept out of the wrong hands. Then claim I am one of those "wrong hands", then cry, "don't presume guilt before buy".

All I am arguing is MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND.

I know where I stand, and NO, as I have said countless times, I AM NOT FOR ALL OUT BAN. All I have argued is that our laws suck currently.

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05-10-2017, 04:14 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 04:05 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 03:51 PM)ImFred Wrote:  But so has seatbelt use, airbags, and modern cars absorb more of the impact and handle better. I think you could use that data to argue that perhaps the alcohol consumption wasn't always a causal force in accidents where the driver had been drinking. Sober driver hits a drunk driver, drunk driver always takes the blame. It's stupid and irresponsible to drive drunk but that doesn't mean there isn't any hysteria skewing how we look at the data.

Funny how everyone is arguing over regulations changing over time for other things, but some morons, not you, but the "originalists" want to use the same musket laws in the age of AR15s.

Again, the same insistence to clinging to old and bad laws was used by the oil industry to keep led in gas. The same bullshit that big tobacco tried to use to keep Joe Camel.

I love how my detractors think I am unreasonable and irrational. And that is the exact position I want them in thinking. Because any sane person would say RIGHTFULLY they dont want unreasonable and irrational people using firearms. WHO WOULD?

Problem is as soon as they do that, I point out that our laws as they currently stand would not prevent me from buying a firearm.

Point is, they cant have it both ways. They cant on the one hand argue RIGHTFULLY, firearms should be kept out of the wrong hands. Then claim I am one of those "wrong hands", then cry, "don't presume guilt before buy".

All I am arguing is MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND.

I know where I stand, and NO, as I have said countless times, I AM NOT FOR ALL OUT BAN. All I have argued is that our laws suck currently.

I will note once more, since you don't seem to be getting it, that many of your "detractors" are on your side. I don't have a big problem with the basic point(s) you're trying to make. My problem is with the way you're trying to make them. You will never convince anyone by screaming at them.

By far the most likely response to something like "MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND" is not "Oh yeah, you're right!" but "Fuck you, too!" You are building a wall between yourself and those whose minds you want to change. And that does more harm than good.
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05-10-2017, 08:12 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
Speaking of statistics, this article seems very on point:

I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...a1d7e77afc

Among the points made, the author, a statistician who previously worked for FiveThirtyEight points out that suicides are 2/3 of gun deaths. In general, she concluded that "The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns."
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05-10-2017, 08:25 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 08:12 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Speaking of statistics, this article seems very on point:

I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...a1d7e77afc

Among the points made, the author, a statistician who previously worked for FiveThirtyEight points out that suicides are 2/3 of gun deaths. In general, she concluded that "The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns."

It's asinine to count suicide by gun as part of gun violence.

The anti gun people contend that access to a firearm increases the odds that a suicidal person will commit suicide.

I think what is far more likely is that a person who is fully intent on killing themselves is more likely to use a method that is quick, sure and painless.

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05-10-2017, 08:54 PM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
I have to stay out of suicide threads because I think if people want to die and handguns help them achieve that aim that's a good thing. I know that's a very unpopular position but I stand by the fact that no successful suicide ever regretted it.
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06-10-2017, 12:49 AM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(05-10-2017 08:54 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I have to stay out of suicide threads because I think if people want to die and handguns help them achieve that aim that's a good thing.

While i dont necessarily disagree with you rposition, i vertianly do with your argument

(05-10-2017 08:54 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I know that's a very unpopular position but I stand by the fact that no successful suicide ever regretted it.
Yes, because they can´t regret anything anymore, not because they dont want to!

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06-10-2017, 03:35 AM
RE: What does science say about firearms?
(06-10-2017 12:49 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 08:54 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I have to stay out of suicide threads because I think if people want to die and handguns help them achieve that aim that's a good thing.

While i dont necessarily disagree with you rposition, i vertianly do with your argument

(05-10-2017 08:54 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I know that's a very unpopular position but I stand by the fact that no successful suicide ever regretted it.
Yes, because they can´t regret anything anymore, not because they dont want to!

I'm all for the right to choose suicide, but what firearms do is make it far too easy to end your life in a bout of depression. You might not really want to end your life, you might actually prefer getting help; and if your brain chemicals had a chance to normalize you'd realize that yourself. Unfortunately firearms make it all too easy to come to a quick permanent solution for what is very often a temporary problem.

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