What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
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21-10-2016, 02:24 AM
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
(21-10-2016 12:57 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(20-10-2016 02:44 PM)KerimF Wrote:  At least, you seem enjoying the spectacle Thumbsup

No im not. You are actually a very, very sad person, and i actually feel a bit guilty looking at that train wreck of a personality you are. But hey, whatever floats your boat. Keep on wasting your life with nonsense, not much left of it anyway. Hope you enjoy your delusion while it lasts, before you are engulfed again forever in non-existence.

Me too, I wish you enjoy your life the way you are Smile 'before you are engulfed again forever in non-existence' Sad

And I think it is time for me now... to start a new thread having the title: "Should my death mean 'the return to my state of void'?" Tongue

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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21-10-2016, 02:52 AM
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
(20-10-2016 04:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-10-2016 02:30 PM)KerimF Wrote:  You did very well.
Yes, such an image of god is obviously a man-made one. And as you said, it is all about money and power.

I am afraid that this applies also in politics but its men use earthly ideals instead as Freedom and Democracy though none of them can exist in reality.

And as the man-made gods have millions of believers who put their hope on them (each god has his followers), the idols 'Freedom' and 'Democracy' have also millions of believers who still hope they will live them someday Wink

Oh. The deepity. Facepalm
Freedom and democracy are not idols. They may be ideals. Everyone has their own idea of what constitutes freedom. Democracy can be a bitch ... the tyranny of the majority ... which is why basic human rights have to be spelled out in a democracy.

Well, when I hear many people being ready to die for Freedom and Democracy (mainly in the American pre-emptive wars, if I am not wrong), I can't see them (Freedom and Democracy) much different from 'Allah's peace' and 'The Promised Land' for which radical fanatic Muslims and Jews are ready to die for.

But this doesn't mean they (Freedom and Democracy) are idols to all people.

By the way, did you know this. The best American man, Obama (claimed being elected too by the FREE American people Democratically), opened the 9/11 Terror Show in the name of Freedom and Democracy in many countries since year 2010. And he did it very clearly in my country Syria in March 2011. About six years ago, Obama urged, on TV, the FREE world to save the Syrian people from a dictator (another evil superman who is discovered from America, as usual); exactly as Bush junior saved the Iraqi people in year 2003. But I understand if you have no idea about these facts, since they are not mentioned on the modern bible Tongue

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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21-10-2016, 03:18 AM
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
(21-10-2016 01:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(20-10-2016 04:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Oh. The deepity. Facepalm
Freedom and democracy are not idols. They may be ideals. Everyone has their own idea of what constitutes freedom. Democracy can be a bitch ... the tyranny of the majority ... which is why basic human rights have to be spelled out in a democracy.

And why those protections are codified in law, to protect the minority from the majority; the essence of a democratic republic built upon the rule of law.

As you say; it is about the rule of law which is, if you are old enough to notice it, created to protect the men on power in the first place Consider
The same applies on the rule of law which is claimed being from heaven. In this case, the law, so-called divine, is also created, confirmed and/or supervised by the men on top, known as being religious instead.

To me in the least, man-made religions (hence having a certain ruling god) and politics (also related to ruling systems) are actually two faces of the same penny. But each of these systems (heavenly or earthly) has its own believers/followers.

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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21-10-2016, 05:43 AM
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
(21-10-2016 01:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(20-10-2016 02:12 PM)KerimF Wrote:  I understand that someone says "God doesn't exist" because he is likely satisfied fully for just knowing that his existence is due to a certain electro-biochemical origin.

You've missed the point entirely. 'God' doesn't exist because we have no good reasoning to think that it does, because those forwarding the existence of such a 'god' have utterly failed to meet their own burden of proof. A natural explanation is not needed, as simply not knowing and admitting that fact is perfectly acceptable; what's not acceptable is pretending to 'know' things you do not 'know', such as the existence of a 'god'. So without positive evidence, Occam's Razor and statistical analysis favors answers that make less assumptions over those with more, and the existence of any such 'god' is an unjustifiable assumption, which necessitates that it is far less probable than the alternative.


(20-10-2016 02:12 PM)KerimF Wrote:  By the way, I will not discuss here that electro-biochemical actions/reactions follow always certain rules but don't make any of them... of these rules Wink

That's fine, as I doubt you have the education necessary to talk about it intelligently.


(20-10-2016 02:12 PM)KerimF Wrote:  On the other hand, I don't think that 'the existence of an omnipotent supernatural entity' is bad by itself. But claiming that our creator (actually the Will/Power that forced us to exist in the realm we call life) needs followers among his tiny creatures and imposes rules on them to verify their submission (as the men on power, on earth, do) does indeed belong to fairy tales made for adults (created by the men on top, claimed being religious and/or of politics. along history and including the present time).

You are still assuming a supernatural entity, which as outlined above, is not a claim you have evidence to back up. So if you continue down that line of reasoning as anything more than a very improbable hypothetical is being supremely disingenuous. To move beyond the hypothetical and to claim it as factual? Well, that would make you a liar and a fraud.

A born blind doesn't need light to perceive his environment while, at best, he may imagine, in one way or another, what those who have good eyes refer to as light and colours.

Did I ever mention that you (or anyone else) are wrong?
I don't because, I, as a scientist (though not recognized by the writers of the modern bible), believe that every person knows about himself much more than I do.
But, it is not my fault that someone insists that my being has a similar nature/structure of his, even if billions of human beings are made of the same nature of his.

For instance, do you see yourself just another animal born on earth?
You likely don't (sorry if I am wrong).
But the ratio (the number of human beings / the number of all living things) is very close to 0%. And it is close to 0% even if we consider the animals only among the living things. Should we conclude that these very few human beings (relative to all other animals; living on lands, under the oceans and in the air) are just another species and, therefore, the meaning of life on earth would be the same without them?

If you understand the analogy above, you will likely get why I don't need to be surprised that billions of humans don't have to perceive their beings the way I do with mine; that is... even if I am 1 of a million Big Grin And they are totally right (relatively speaking) anytime they see in me as having illusions and alike, if not a person who is pleased in fooling himself. After all, what else they can see in a person as I Big Grin

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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21-10-2016, 09:30 PM
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
Kerim, have you read the New Testament?
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22-10-2016, 12:44 AM
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
(21-10-2016 09:30 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Kerim, have you read the New Testament?

I read Jesus sayings only on the Gospel (4 Gospels, if you like).
I did it attentively when I was about 16 to prove that Jesus is just another man, made famous.

My family happened being Roman Catholic. Also my French school in Aleppo city was Catholic too and we had, every year, a course about Christianity (obviously, the one which is defined by the today's Vatican in Rome).

At school I used being very interested in arithmetic (when kid) then in mathematics (Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry... etc.) and physics (mechanics, electricity, optics... etc.). On the other hand, I wasn't interested in studying seriously any subject that cannot be based on a well-defined logic; mainly literature, history, and arts. So I had to find out if what is called 'religion', 'spirituality' or 'philosophy' belongs to the first category (based on logic) or the second one (based on inherited ideas/tools which are often specific to each region in the world, as languages).

First, it became clear to me though gradually (at school) that what is known as Church teachings has nothing to do with logic. So it wasn't possible for me to accept them, at least as they are given; starting from 'sacraments'.
And these teachings are claimed being of a certain famous man, known as Jesus Christ. So I personally decided to study carefully what Jesus says exactly on the Gospel I had (a Catholic Arabic version) to prove (for me in the least) that this Jesus is just another man-made idol.

In the first stage and to my big surprise, I discovered that Jesus sayings and the teachings of ANY Church (Denomination) are, in general, different and even in contradiction about many important things related to life.

In the second stage, I had to discover if Jesus teachings are based (or not) on logic (hence on experiences I can personally perceive and analyse), also if they could be useful (or not) for me in my daily life (as my knowledge of math and electronics helps gain my daily bread since my graduation... hence since about 40 years ago).

As you are expecting now, what came next is a rather long story Wink
But I guess this brief introduction did answer your question in the least... perhaps not Big Grin

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
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22-10-2016, 03:23 AM
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
I am sorry, Kerim, I thought you were Muslim.

I am near to you. I know a few people from Aleppo. One was a student dentist at our local hospital dental school. He is very nice guy and said that Aleppo was a great city to live in. I hope it can recover from all this horror and be a good place to live again.

My view of Christianity is that it is a moral code based on reason. It starts with a new world view, or view of what "God " is. It rejects the anthropomorphized view of God as something which can be spoken to and tells people, from the top of mountains, how to behave. In Christianity, God is the "word" or "logos". It is, I believe, a religion based on reason. From this starting point you can then look at the central moral principle of the religion, which is "do unto others as they would do unto you". It then spells out by way of parables, examples of how to interpret and apply this moral principle.

The rest of it, the miracles and the historical aspects of it are a vehicle for making it appeal to the people of the Near East and it tells a political story which is intended to pacify the region by making the rebel leader, Jesus, a peacemaker.

I just wondered about your background because I find that very few Muslims (none) have read the New Testament. They tend to see themselves as Muslims from birth, as though it is an ethnicity and they seem to think Christians are an ethnic group as well. This makes it difficult to deal with them on an intellectual level because they can't speak to you without thinking they are betraying their people or their family and they can't understand that there are other ways to look at moral issues outside of their Islamic way of thinking.
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22-10-2016, 06:14 PM
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
Kerim, you say something to the effect that you only want to study things that are logical.
Are you at all interested if they are true or not ?

Flying pigs have wings.
All pigs do not have wings.
All pigs cannot fly.

I am hoping the above statements are logical.
From those statements, could someone infer that flying pigs may have existed at one time, even though there is no evidence of a flying pig ever existing ?

I find it more useful to deal with things that are true, than to deal with something you believe could logically have been true if we had evidence for it.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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23-10-2016, 12:44 AM
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
(22-10-2016 06:14 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Kerim, you say something to the effect that you only want to study things that are logical.
Are you at all interested if they are true or not ?

Flying pigs have wings.
All pigs do not have wings.
All pigs cannot fly.

I am hoping the above statements are logical.
From those statements, could someone infer that flying pigs may have existed at one time, even though there is no evidence of a flying pig ever existing ?

I find it more useful to deal with things that are true, than to deal with something you believe could logically have been true if we had evidence for it.

Thank you for your interesting example and I agree with you.

But Wink I am afraid that you missed what I said afterwards:
"... also if they could be useful (or not) for me in my daily life...".

I mean; even if a logical idea is also true, but it doesn't help me do anything useful in my life (relative to my priorities in life), I don't mind forgetting it Wink

In other words, I add an idea permanently to my set of knowledge if it is 'logical' (hence it is based on the same criteria that all previous ones, scientific or else. are), 'true' (I can perceive its effects personally when applied, in one way or another) and 'USEFUL' (to me in the least). It should satisfy 3 conditions Wink

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
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23-10-2016, 02:52 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2016 03:04 AM by KerimF.)
RE: What does the word ‘god’ refer to?
(22-10-2016 03:23 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I am sorry, Kerim, I thought you were Muslim.

I am near to you. I know a few people from Aleppo. One was a student dentist at our local hospital dental school. He is very nice guy and said that Aleppo was a great city to live in. I hope it can recover from all this horror and be a good place to live again.

My view of Christianity is that it is a moral code based on reason. It starts with a new world view, or view of what "God " is. It rejects the anthropomorphized view of God as something which can be spoken to and tells people, from the top of mountains, how to behave. In Christianity, God is the "word" or "logos". It is, I believe, a religion based on reason. From this starting point you can then look at the central moral principle of the religion, which is "do unto others as they would do unto you". It then spells out by way of parables, examples of how to interpret and apply this moral principle.

The rest of it, the miracles and the historical aspects of it are a vehicle for making it appeal to the people of the Near East and it tells a political story which is intended to pacify the region by making the rebel leader, Jesus, a peacemaker.

I just wondered about your background because I find that very few Muslims (none) have read the New Testament. They tend to see themselves as Muslims from birth, as though it is an ethnicity and they seem to think Christians are an ethnic group as well. This makes it difficult to deal with them on an intellectual level because they can't speak to you without thinking they are betraying their people or their family and they can't understand that there are other ways to look at moral issues outside of their Islamic way of thinking.

After all, you are not the first (or the last) one who thought (will think) 'Kerim' is Muslim.
When I was much younger (a newbie in life) I used seeing every American as Evangelist, every British as Protestant and every French or Italian as Catholic. So it is not a crime if someone sees every Arab as Muslim Wink

On the other hand, you may have already noticed, from my previous posts, that I am not, practically speaking, a typical Christian Wink
By definition (on the modern bible), a Christian should believe in his religious ideas on faith not reason. Therefore, almost all Christians, I had the chance to meet in forums so far, consider my following statement as a sort of blasphemy:
"Jesus is the Perfect Divine Teacher" Wink
I can't blame them. They used, as they were told, searching for the truth(s) on the whole Bible. They consider all its verses having the same importance for being the 'Word of God'. So, they simply (automatically) refuse that, practically speaking, the 'Word of God' is now Jesus only (what he says and how he lived).

It is like an engineer who, while he claims being professional, keeps re-reading even his scientific books that he learnt at school, anytime he tries designing a new project. To him, all books, he studied, also present the ‘Word of Science’. In fact, he couldn’t be the engineer (he is now) without studying these books first (when he was a kid). But Wink after he learnt, during his high studies, the most updated versions of what he got at school, his school’s books became nice souvenirs only.

This is exactly what happened when the Creator (the Will/Power that forced all of us to exist in this realm we call life) started addressing the human beings when they were newbie on earth; kids of humanity. So naturally, the teachings which were addressed to the ancient Jews (and alike) were at the level of what kids learn at school about material things. But I don’t know how, for example, most people cannot see yet in the story of Adam and Eve an informative fairy tale (made for adults) that introduced, in a simple way, what the fresh human brain was able perceiving at that time. For example, imagine they were told about evolution (of the creation). But now, it is easy, for me in the least, to understand this evolution from experience (and thanks to the discovered medical tools). In fact, I was just a tiny living cell (resulted from combining/unifying two independent living cells) which has evolved rather quickly during 9 months only (thanks to its many embedded instructions, inherited since millions of years); to become the healthy human baby I was Smile

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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