What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-09-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
Uh-oh. Aliza, duck and cover... Blink

[Image: ZF1ZJ4M.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-09-2015, 04:28 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:22 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Uh-oh. Aliza, duck and cover... Blink

Shit.

Bechased
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
03-09-2015, 04:31 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:19 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 03:35 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, I have seen that argument, but I disagree with it. Genesis 1:26 most certainly provides an argument with the "us" and "our" plural verbs.

I know this is really wordy... sorry. At the end of the day, if you view it differently than I do, then that's fine. I still wish to state my case. Wink

Yes, the text does say “our” but the mem on the end of that word is not plural. The entitles to whom G-d is speaking are not identified in Genesis at all. I believe many Christians or people with Christian backgrounds see equal plurality there because that’s what they’re expecting to see. I don’t believe the text supports it, but to be fair, I'm not a Hebrew scholar.

Then again, Judaism and Christianity are totally different religions having very little in common. Observant Jews rely on the Talmud to help interpret confusing text. In the Talmud, it says that G-d is speaking to a council of angels and not to other gods.

Even if we don’t use the Talmud, there are other parts of the bible that depict G-d with angels and seraphims, and a council of the Lord. The phrase “us”…. Such as in Isaiah 6:1-2,8 G-d asks, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Jeremiah 22:26 and 23:18 and Job 15:8 talk about a council of the Lord. These passages clearly show that G-d is not alone, and I believe that there is precedence to show that when G-d says “us” He’s talking about His council and not to other gods which I don’t think are mentioned anywhere anyway.

I’m unaware of anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures where G-d indicates having a co-partnership with another G-d. I’d be curious to examine such a passage.

Yes, there is precedence for a certainty for almost all of it. It's just this one verse in Genesis that seems exceptionally different due to the plurality, which is there in the Hebrew.

The following is the best precedence I have seen to support your position regarding a council of God:

Gen 11:6 And Jehovah said, Behold! The people is one and they all have one language. And this they begin to do. And now nothing which they have imagined to do will be restrained from them.
Gen 11:7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they cannot understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So Jehovah scattered them abroad from that place upon the face of all the earth. And they quit building the city.



It demonstrates God in the singular as "Jehovah" in 11:6, then the council with the word "Us" in 11:7, and then swings back to the singular "Jehovah" in 11:8. The reason this is so good is that it is all in the same conversation and subject matter.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-09-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:19 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 03:35 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, I have seen that argument, but I disagree with it. Genesis 1:26 most certainly provides an argument with the "us" and "our" plural verbs.

I know this is really wordy... sorry. At the end of the day, if you view it differently than I do, then that's fine. I still wish to state my case. Wink

Yes, the text does say “our” but the mem on the end of that word is not plural. The entitles to whom G-d is speaking are not identified in Genesis at all. I believe many Christians or people with Christian backgrounds see equal plurality there because that’s what they’re expecting to see. I don’t believe the text supports it, but to be fair, I'm not a Hebrew scholar.

Then again, Judaism and Christianity are totally different religions having very little in common. Observant Jews rely on the Talmud to help interpret confusing text. In the Talmud, it says that G-d is speaking to a council of angels and not to other gods.

Even if we don’t use the Talmud, there are other parts of the bible that depict G-d with angels and seraphims, and a council of the Lord. The phrase “us”…. Such as in Isaiah 6:1-2,8 G-d asks, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Jeremiah 22:26 and 23:18 and Job 15:8 talk about a council of the Lord. These passages clearly show that G-d is not alone, and I believe that there is precedence to show that when G-d says “us” He’s talking about His council and not to other gods which I don’t think are mentioned anywhere anyway.

I’m unaware of anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures where G-d indicates having a co-partnership with another G-d. I’d be curious to examine such a passage.

Angels are just another word for gods in a pantheon. They were non-distinctive because the Jews were making a switch from polytheism to monotheism. There also has been some question surrounding the nephilim--where sons of gods went into daughters of men. Some scholars say these were other gods and some say the gods they were referring to were human kings.

Genesis is significantly older than the Talmud which makes me question the Talmud's accuracy in interpreting the views of early biblical writers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jennybee's post
03-09-2015, 04:51 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2015 04:54 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 02:57 PM)Free Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 02:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, there are Gods - Males and Females.

Polytheism.

I didn't know this before Alla came here but yes Mormons are apparently polytheist. Even setting aside their belief that we are all Gods in training (a belief I personally don't have a problem with), they don't believe in the Trinity so there are at least 3 Gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Not one God in 3 persons. 3 Gods. Actually makes more sense than the Trinity.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
03-09-2015, 04:55 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 02:57 PM)Free Wrote:  Polytheism.

I didn't know this before Alla came here but yes Mormons are apparently polytheist. Even setting aside their belief that we are all Gods in training (a belief I personally don't have a problem with), they don't believe in the Trinity so there are at least 3 Gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Not one God in 3 persons. Actually makes more sense than the Trinity.

You would think an almighty being would be a lot more clear Consider
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-09-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:32 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:19 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I know this is really wordy... sorry. At the end of the day, if you view it differently than I do, then that's fine. I still wish to state my case. Wink

Yes, the text does say “our” but the mem on the end of that word is not plural. The entitles to whom G-d is speaking are not identified in Genesis at all. I believe many Christians or people with Christian backgrounds see equal plurality there because that’s what they’re expecting to see. I don’t believe the text supports it, but to be fair, I'm not a Hebrew scholar.

Then again, Judaism and Christianity are totally different religions having very little in common. Observant Jews rely on the Talmud to help interpret confusing text. In the Talmud, it says that G-d is speaking to a council of angels and not to other gods.

Even if we don’t use the Talmud, there are other parts of the bible that depict G-d with angels and seraphims, and a council of the Lord. The phrase “us”…. Such as in Isaiah 6:1-2,8 G-d asks, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Jeremiah 22:26 and 23:18 and Job 15:8 talk about a council of the Lord. These passages clearly show that G-d is not alone, and I believe that there is precedence to show that when G-d says “us” He’s talking about His council and not to other gods which I don’t think are mentioned anywhere anyway.

I’m unaware of anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures where G-d indicates having a co-partnership with another G-d. I’d be curious to examine such a passage.

Angels are just another word for gods in a pantheon. They were non-distinctive because the Jews were making a switch from polytheism to monotheism. There also has been some question surrounding the nephilim--where sons of gods went into daughters of men. Some scholars say these were other gods and some say the gods they were referring to were human kings.

Genesis is significantly older than the Talmud which makes me question the Talmud's accuracy in interpreting the views of early biblical writers.

Once you start interpreting, though, I'm not sure accuracy is even the right word. By the very act of interpretation, you're switching from what it actually says to what you think it means. Jews think it means different things than what Christians think it means, so the Talmud would be valuable for that reason alone. It's an interpretation that's not colored by trying to see Christ behind every burning bush. Those books were written by Jews, so who better than Jews to interpret them?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Grasshopper's post
03-09-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:55 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I didn't know this before Alla came here but yes Mormons are apparently polytheist. Even setting aside their belief that we are all Gods in training (a belief I personally don't have a problem with), they don't believe in the Trinity so there are at least 3 Gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Not one God in 3 persons. Actually makes more sense than the Trinity.

You would think an almighty being would be a lot more clear Consider

Imagine yourself, though, trying to "be clear" to an ant or a bacterium. That's God's problem in a nutshell.

Sorry, Jennybee, I'm not trying to pick fights with you or anything. You just raise some interesting points.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-09-2015, 05:06 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:55 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I didn't know this before Alla came here but yes Mormons are apparently polytheist. Even setting aside their belief that we are all Gods in training (a belief I personally don't have a problem with), they don't believe in the Trinity so there are at least 3 Gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Not one God in 3 persons. Actually makes more sense than the Trinity.

You would think an almighty being would be a lot more clear Consider

I'm am starting to be fascinated with the Mormon metaphysics. I mean I've read their book and GWoG has some excellent academic posts but Alla's the first person I've met who lives it and is willing to share. From what I've gathered so far I'm not sure Mormons see God as almighty. I'm not sure they buy into the omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient business at all. I can see why other Christian sects claim they are not Christian at all.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-09-2015, 05:06 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:58 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Those books were written by Jews, so who better than Jews to interpret them?

No, not written by Jews.

Ancient Hebrews and Egyptians.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Free's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: