What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
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03-09-2015, 05:07 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?




My new God and no one can prove otherwise Tongue


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-09-2015, 09:40 AM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 05:01 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:55 PM)jennybee Wrote:  You would think an almighty being would be a lot more clear Consider

Imagine yourself, though, trying to "be clear" to an ant or a bacterium. That's God's problem in a nutshell.

Sorry, Jennybee, I'm not trying to pick fights with you or anything. You just raise some interesting points.

Except humans didn't create ants and bacteria "in their own image" and don't expect ants to follow a set of rules or else be punished by eternal damnation.

If god has this "problem" it would be a sign of his own incompetence.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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04-09-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:58 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:32 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Angels are just another word for gods in a pantheon. They were non-distinctive because the Jews were making a switch from polytheism to monotheism. There also has been some question surrounding the nephilim--where sons of gods went into daughters of men. Some scholars say these were other gods and some say the gods they were referring to were human kings.

Genesis is significantly older than the Talmud which makes me question the Talmud's accuracy in interpreting the views of early biblical writers.

Once you start interpreting, though, I'm not sure accuracy is even the right word. By the very act of interpretation, you're switching from what it actually says to what you think it means. Jews think it means different things than what Christians think it means, so the Talmud would be valuable for that reason alone. It's an interpretation that's not colored by trying to see Christ behind every burning bush. Those books were written by Jews, so who better than Jews to interpret them?

I totally agree. That's my point exactly--everything is open to interpretation. If God is all powerful and His Word is so important for us to understand--why allow this?
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04-09-2015, 10:51 AM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 05:01 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:55 PM)jennybee Wrote:  You would think an almighty being would be a lot more clear Consider

Imagine yourself, though, trying to "be clear" to an ant or a bacterium. That's God's problem in a nutshell.

Sorry, Jennybee, I'm not trying to pick fights with you or anything. You just raise some interesting points.

If you are all-powerful to the point where you can control language and communication--you could be clear to the beings you create.
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04-09-2015, 10:56 AM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 05:06 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:55 PM)jennybee Wrote:  You would think an almighty being would be a lot more clear Consider

I'm am starting to be fascinated with the Mormon metaphysics. I mean I've read their book and GWoG has some excellent academic posts but Alla's the first person I've met who lives it and is willing to share. From what I've gathered so far I'm not sure Mormons see God as almighty. I'm not sure they buy into the omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient business at all. I can see why other Christian sects claim they are not Christian at all.

I think all religions that take the Bible as their holy book are justified by the approaches they take to it. What I mean is--you can literally find anything to back up your own agenda or religion because any of the passages can be viewed in a multitude of different ways and then you add on the contradictions and different contributing writers--it's like a religious free-for-all.
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04-09-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(03-09-2015 04:58 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:32 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Angels are just another word for gods in a pantheon. They were non-distinctive because the Jews were making a switch from polytheism to monotheism. There also has been some question surrounding the nephilim--where sons of gods went into daughters of men. Some scholars say these were other gods and some say the gods they were referring to were human kings.

Genesis is significantly older than the Talmud which makes me question the Talmud's accuracy in interpreting the views of early biblical writers.

Once you start interpreting, though, I'm not sure accuracy is even the right word. By the very act of interpretation, you're switching from what it actually says to what you think it means. Jews think it means different things than what Christians think it means, so the Talmud would be valuable for that reason alone. It's an interpretation that's not colored by trying to see Christ behind every burning bush. Those books were written by Jews, so who better than Jews to interpret them?

They were written by them--but they took their ideas and beliefs from the cultures around them. So if that is the case, and we want to interpret the early biblical mindset to the best of our abilities, wouldn't it be more accurate to look at the other cultures/beliefs of the same time period as a way to help interpret what the early biblical writers were talking about--as opposed to using a book (i.e. The Talmud) that was written many, many years later?
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04-09-2015, 12:11 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(04-09-2015 11:05 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:58 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Once you start interpreting, though, I'm not sure accuracy is even the right word. By the very act of interpretation, you're switching from what it actually says to what you think it means. Jews think it means different things than what Christians think it means, so the Talmud would be valuable for that reason alone. It's an interpretation that's not colored by trying to see Christ behind every burning bush. Those books were written by Jews, so who better than Jews to interpret them?

They were written by them--but they took their ideas and beliefs from the cultures around them. So if that is the case, and we want to interpret the early biblical mindset to the best of our abilities, wouldn't it be more accurate to look at the other cultures/beliefs of the same time period as a way to help interpret what the early biblical writers were talking about--as opposed to using a book (i.e. The Talmud) that was written many, many years later?

That seems like a sensible approach. I wasn't so much arguing with you as with the way Christians presume to dictate -- to the Jews! -- the "correct" interpretation of Jewish scriptures ("It all points to Christ!"). The Talmud makes more sense than that (at least in theory -- I have never looked at the Talmud).

But your approach is probably best. We can never know exactly what was in the minds of the original authors of the Bible. It's all interpretation. So it's best to look at a variety of interpretations, including contemporary ones -- and also to look at contemporary sources. I have a Norton Critical Edition of the Bible that does that. Along with the usual footnotes, commentary, critical essays, etc., there is also a generous selection of other myths and literature of that time, showing where a lot of the Bible stories and ideas came from. It's fascinating.

I also have another book that reverses what I complain about above. It's the Jewish Annotated New Testament (yes, this is a real book!). Turnabout is fair play -- here, Jews get to interpret Christian scriptures. I love it!
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04-09-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(04-09-2015 09:40 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 05:01 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Imagine yourself, though, trying to "be clear" to an ant or a bacterium. That's God's problem in a nutshell.

Sorry, Jennybee, I'm not trying to pick fights with you or anything. You just raise some interesting points.

Except humans didn't create ants and bacteria "in their own image" and don't expect ants to follow a set of rules or else be punished by eternal damnation.

If god has this "problem" it would be a sign of his own incompetence.

Yeah, that was a hasty post (I was literally on my way out the door when I dashed it off), and I thought of the same objection you raised a few minutes later, while on my way home. I do most of my posting at work, because my computer and internet at home are hopelessly slow.

So anyway, never mind. It was a bad analogy, although I may explore the same basic idea in some later post.
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04-09-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(04-09-2015 10:50 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(03-09-2015 04:58 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Once you start interpreting, though, I'm not sure accuracy is even the right word. By the very act of interpretation, you're switching from what it actually says to what you think it means. Jews think it means different things than what Christians think it means, so the Talmud would be valuable for that reason alone. It's an interpretation that's not colored by trying to see Christ behind every burning bush. Those books were written by Jews, so who better than Jews to interpret them?

I totally agree. That's my point exactly--everything is open to interpretation. If God is all powerful and His Word is so important for us to understand--why allow this?

I think we both know the answer to this: God either doesn't exist (I vote for this one), or he doesn't deign to communicate directly with humans at all. The Bible is, at best, a flawed human interpretation of "God's Word" -- or a human idea of what God's Word would be like if he existed and did lower himself to talk to us.
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04-09-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: What evidence you got to prove the existence of God ?
(04-09-2015 12:11 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 11:05 AM)jennybee Wrote:  They were written by them--but they took their ideas and beliefs from the cultures around them. So if that is the case, and we want to interpret the early biblical mindset to the best of our abilities, wouldn't it be more accurate to look at the other cultures/beliefs of the same time period as a way to help interpret what the early biblical writers were talking about--as opposed to using a book (i.e. The Talmud) that was written many, many years later?

That seems like a sensible approach. I wasn't so much arguing with you as with the way Christians presume to dictate -- to the Jews! -- the "correct" interpretation of Jewish scriptures ("It all points to Christ!"). The Talmud makes more sense than that (at least in theory -- I have never looked at the Talmud).

But your approach is probably best. We can never know exactly what was in the minds of the original authors of the Bible. It's all interpretation. So it's best to look at a variety of interpretations, including contemporary ones -- and also to look at contemporary sources. I have a Norton Critical Edition of the Bible that does that. Along with the usual footnotes, commentary, critical essays, etc., there is also a generous selection of other myths and literature of that time, showing where a lot of the Bible stories and ideas came from. It's fascinating.

I also have another book that reverses what I complain about above. It's the Jewish Annotated New Testament (yes, this is a real book!). Turnabout is fair play -- here, Jews get to interpret Christian scriptures. I love it!

Agreed--the Christians definitely took from the Jews and twisted it to fit their own belief system. But the Jews also took beliefs from other cultures around them. That is how religion works in many cases. You see a lot of overlap of beliefs from nearby cultures which explains a lot of similarities between stories and concepts (with a name change or slight story change along the way). Of course, each culture also adds new elements to fit their agenda/belief system/societal construct..
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