What happened to frankjs?
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02-06-2014, 07:08 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(02-06-2014 06:25 PM)BnW Wrote:  Hi all

I have not been around in a while, but I lurk. I just don't have the time to keep up with the forum. But, this topic took me out of my semi-retirement because I had not realized frankjs had stormed off. I just took a look at the thread that pushed him over the edge. I did not read it in its entirety, but I think I got the gist.

My issue with frankjs was not his ideas. I actually think, when you got past a lot of the bluster, he had a lot of salient points and I agreed with quite a few things he said. I think the problem was he was just such a douchebag in his presentation that he made it impossible to agree with him, or like him, or even have a discussion with him. The obnoxious factor was over the top ,at least for me.

So, I find it kind of funny he got frustrated and left considering he was the cause of so much of his frustration, at least in my opinion at least.

That's a fair summary, though you left out his dishonesty.

While I am largely in agreement with libertarian ideals, I despise fundamentalists of all stripes.
Especially those who will lie and cheat for 'the cause'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-06-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
Thanks BnW it's a long thread. It confirmed my suspicions about frankjs. I'm still not quite done reading...

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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02-06-2014, 07:21 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(02-06-2014 07:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's a fair summary, though you left out his dishonesty.

While I am largely in agreement with libertarian ideals, I despise fundamentalists of all stripes.
Especially those who will lie and cheat for 'the cause'.

I haven't gotten to the lies yet. I think frankjs is more of an anarchist than a libertarian.

And yes libertarians have a good handle on economics and the free market. Rothbardians like Frankie and luminon though aren't really traditional economists because they reject empiricism among other things. It's easier to do economics without data and just sticking to praxeology.

I'm considering the libertarian label to be just muddled up by the Austrian school. I think the label of Jeffersonian or classical liberal might be more apt for me.

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02-06-2014, 08:47 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(02-06-2014 07:21 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 07:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's a fair summary, though you left out his dishonesty.

While I am largely in agreement with libertarian ideals, I despise fundamentalists of all stripes.
Especially those who will lie and cheat for 'the cause'.

I haven't gotten to the lies yet. I think frankjs is more of an anarchist than a libertarian.

And yes libertarians have a good handle on economics and the free market. Rothbardians like Frankie and luminon though aren't really traditional economists because they reject empiricism among other things. It's easier to do economics without data and just sticking to praxeology.

I'm considering the libertarian label to be just muddled up by the Austrian school. I think the label of Jeffersonian or classical liberal might be more apt for me.

I mostly say fuck those labels. All of them.

I am a pragmatic humanist.
If it hurts people, let's try not to do it.
If it infringes on personal freedom, let's try not to do it.
If someone's a dick, let's try to do something about it.

If your ideology interferes with any of the above, you're a dick.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-06-2014, 09:47 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(02-06-2014 08:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  ...
I mostly say fuck those labels. All of them.

I am a pragmatic humanist.
If it hurts people, let's try not to do it.
If it infringes on personal freedom, let's try not to do it.
If someone's a dick, let's try to do something about it.

If your ideology interferes with any of the above, you're a dick.

Cool with that... although I would add "without their consent" in a coupla places Angel

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02-06-2014, 09:58 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(02-06-2014 09:47 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 08:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  ...
I mostly say fuck those labels. All of them.

I am a pragmatic humanist.
If it hurts people, let's try not to do it.
If it infringes on personal freedom, let's try not to do it.
If someone's a dick, let's try to do something about it.

If your ideology interferes with any of the above, you're a dick.

Cool with that... although I would add "without their consent" in a coupla places Angel

I thought 'try' conveyed the sense of negotiation and cooperation while retaining the poetic pithiness and taut terseness required in the manifesto form. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-06-2014, 10:12 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(02-06-2014 09:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 09:47 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Cool with that... although I would add "without their consent" in a coupla places Angel

I thought 'try' conveyed the sense of negotiation and cooperation while retaining the poetic pithiness and taut terseness required in the manifesto form. Drinking Beverage

It didn't.



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03-06-2014, 03:05 AM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(02-06-2014 09:47 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(02-06-2014 08:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  ...
I mostly say fuck those labels. All of them.

I am a pragmatic humanist.
If it hurts people, let's try not to do it.
If it infringes on personal freedom, let's try not to do it.
If someone's a dick, let's try to do something about it.

If your ideology interferes with any of the above, you're a dick.

Cool with that... although I would add "without their consent" in a coupla places Angel

"If someone's a dick without their consent, let's try to do something about it."/"If someone's a dick, let's try to do something about it, without their consent."
"If it hurts people, let's try to not do it, without their consent."

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03-06-2014, 04:21 AM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
"What happened to frankjs?"
Ask the Shadow.
Who knows what evil LURKS in the hearts of men ? The Shadow knows.

frankksj
01-06-2014 08:10 PM

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-06-2014, 04:38 AM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
OK, re-viving this thread for nefarious purposes.

(02-06-2014 07:21 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I haven't gotten to the lies yet. I think frankjs is more of an anarchist than a libertarian.

And yes libertarians have a good handle on economics and the free market. Rothbardians like Frankie and luminon though aren't really traditional economists because they reject empiricism among other things. It's easier to do economics without data and just sticking to praxeology.

I'm considering the libertarian label to be just muddled up by the Austrian school. I think the label of Jeffersonian or classical liberal might be more apt for me.
I wouldn't say so, no rational person rejects empiricism. Empiricism is derived from and defined by the rational method. However, we can't use empiricism to say anything about what should exist in reality, that's impossible. We use empiricism to test theories and to flesh them out with methods and conditions. It's just too bulky to use for anything else. We use it in science for the induction and deduction methods, but that's not goal-oriented. Goals like morality are not a part of science, they're philosophical, science is an instrument, not a goal in itself. It's an advisory voice, not commanding.

Anyway, I don't understand why do you consider labels important. The world is divided on those who can understand the first principles, reason from them logically and root them in concrete empirical facts, such as people or money. Austrian school does that, statism doesn't, statism stops short of reality creating castles in the sky called state, government, church, society, re-distributive justice and so on. But when you look closely enough, all you see is people, guns, families and money.
And it doesn't reach up into the first principles either, we have holy trinity and men with supernatural powers, such as the power to make truth and yet be immune from the truth (law). Statism is a balloon of circular nonsense freely floating in the realm of middle truths (lies).

Austrian school is a nice example of reaching up to the first principles and implementing them in existence of empirical facts, such as people and money.

(02-06-2014 08:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  I mostly say fuck those labels. All of them.

I am a pragmatic humanist.
If it hurts people, let's try not to do it.
If it infringes on personal freedom, let's try not to do it.
If someone's a dick, let's try to do something about it.

If your ideology interferes with any of the above, you're a dick.
I doubt that pragmatism is philosophical. It says, "fuck philosophy, reality and purpose, method macht frei". Well, how do you choose the purpose, if only method is real? With such approach, science is just an instrument of market or government. Nothing wrong with that - but then don't call yourself a humanist.
You're more of an institutionalist, you're in for the machine, not the people, man. Smokin

It seems you use the argument from consequences, that is, utilitarianism.
How do we know what hurts people in advance? A surgery seems to do an awful lot of damage at first, yet it's actually helping. And yet it sometimes fails and hurts the patient. We choose surgery based on a principle, that scientific actions are better than non-scientific regardless of consequences.

Parents attacking children (KC) say they're doing it "for your own good". Anyone can come up with an argument that "do what I say, it may seem unpleasant, but some time in the future it will have better consequences." Or they say, "this is good, because it has good consequences for many people." (slavery seemed profitable) We need to know how to act now, regardless how things or promises turn out. It is universally preferable to act upon a reasonable principle, because that's the only thing we actually have before we act. Facts don't have a higher meaning besides themselves, they don't act, don't think, we do. And we only need facts to such an extent to verify that we know a principle that generated them.

What is personal freedom? What about the freedom to keep all the money I earn and give them out only to those who I choose because they ask me nicely? That would mean you'd join me against the government and taxation.

What is this something we do about people who are dicks? If they're truly dicks, they can't be reasoned with them and you shouldn't expect otherwise. How can you actively oppose them, unless you forcefully restrict their personal freedom? Ask the government to lock them up?
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