What happened to frankjs?
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04-06-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(04-06-2014 09:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Let's let the government regulate all food.

Have you not heard of the USDA? You wanna die from aflatoxin poisoning? How about a little e coli with that burger? Salmonella maybe? Goddam you're as naive as frankie.

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04-06-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(04-06-2014 09:53 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Most excellent straw man, Luminon; most excellent indeed.

Clearly, the only alternative to no regulation whatsoever is all the regulation.

There is obviously no possible middle ground. Nope! Continuum fallacy false choices are the only way to look at things.

I think you'll find governments do regulate the content of what can be sold as food. As it turns out, that's actually the best way to prevent amoral corporations from exploiting incredibly unequal producer/consumer relationships from selling any old shit to you as food.
(and no, "any old shit" is not hyperbole)
Oh, you say there is a middle ground? Wonderful! Show it to me. Surely there is some evidence why should government regulate some food and not other. There's a lot of W's, such as why, when, where and what and why tax-paid armed forces are necessary to keep a part of our food secure and not the other part that wouldn't be regulated.

OK, amoral corporations are dangerous. But who created the corporations? They're government-created instruments of limited legal liability in front of government courts. The government court can punish a corporation with financial fines, but not before people take their money from it and escape unscathed. No wonder they're amoral, they've got limited liability (responsibility). And it can only work because government has even less responsibility than corporations. Governments can start wars and test thousands of nukes and I don't remember any government member ever going to jail. Woah. I'd really want such an institution to watch over my food.

(04-06-2014 10:40 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Have you not heard of the USDA? You wanna die from aflatoxin poisoning? How about a little e coli with that burger? Salmonella maybe? Goddam you're as naive as frankie.
OK, let's say that USDA is a really useful institution that saves lives. Everyone knows that. Now imagine that dollar gets bankrupt out of existence in a financial crisis. How would you secure a new, non-governmental source of financing for such a useful institution?
I have a couple ideas already. Trust me, there's no need to aim guns at people to finance watching over food.
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04-06-2014, 12:27 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 09:53 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Most excellent straw man, Luminon; most excellent indeed.

Clearly, the only alternative to no regulation whatsoever is all the regulation.

There is obviously no possible middle ground. Nope! Continuum fallacy false choices are the only way to look at things.

I think you'll find governments do regulate the content of what can be sold as food. As it turns out, that's actually the best way to prevent amoral corporations from exploiting incredibly unequal producer/consumer relationships from selling any old shit to you as food.
(and no, "any old shit" is not hyperbole)
Oh, you say there is a middle ground? Wonderful! Show it to me.

If you don't realize that it already exists, you're far more of an idiot than I thought.

Remember that facetious thing you said? "Government should take over all the farmer business, all grocery stores and supermarkets"?

Now - and I do hope you understand me when I say this - that is not what happens today. Nor does anyone advocate it.

However - and I really hope you can keep up with such a complicated principle as this - this does not mean there is no regulation whatsoever.

So yes. One might just call that "middle ground". If one were so inclined. And not being willfully obtuse in order to spout incoherent self-congratulatory twaddle.

(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Surely there is some evidence why should government regulate some food and not other. There's a lot of W's, such as why, when, where and what and why tax-paid armed forces are necessary to keep a part of our food secure and not the other part that wouldn't be regulated.

Yes. Because things happen for reasons.

Turns out a lot of the reasons boil down to "we can't assume perfect good faith on behalf of everybody forever". Go figure.

Incidentally, armed forces and law enforcement are different things. Were you ignorant of the distinction, or did you just wish to be disingenuous for rhetorical effect?

(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  OK, amoral corporations are dangerous. But who created the corporations?

People did.

(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  They're government-created instruments of limited legal liability in front of government courts.

I wouldn't have guessed you'd be so vacuously ideological as to attempt to claim that organised groups of people wouldn't exist without a highly specific and contextual civil framework, but there you go...

(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The government court can punish a corporation with financial fines, but not before people take their money from it and escape unscathed.

Uh, no, that's not how the law works. Anywhere. Individual and collective responsibility are distinct but non-exclusive legal concepts. Read a book.

(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  No wonder they're amoral, they've got limited liability (responsibility). And it can only work because government has even less responsibility than corporations.

I can vote for my MP. I can't vote for my university dean (ie, my boss).

(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Governments can start wars and test thousands of nukes and I don't remember any government member ever going to jail.

Really? I can think of all kinds of people who've gone to jail after committing crimes.

People don't go to jail just for doing things you don't like. Did you not know that?

(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Woah. I'd really want such an institution to watch over my food.

It's cute that you're being so insistently fatuous about it, but, holy fuck, yes you do. Read a book. I even suggested one for you.

Or do you think "throwing the dead workers in with the meat" that would be better solved through a little of the ol' Magical Thinking™?

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04-06-2014, 03:53 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 04:06 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If you don't realize that it already exists, you're far more of an idiot than I thought.

Remember that facetious thing you said? "Government should take over all the farmer business, all grocery stores and supermarkets"?

Now - and I do hope you understand me when I say this - that is not what happens today. Nor does anyone advocate it.

However - and I really hope you can keep up with such a complicated principle as this - this does not mean there is no regulation whatsoever.

So yes. One might just call that "middle ground". If one were so inclined. And not being willfully obtuse in order to spout incoherent self-congratulatory twaddle.
This is what happens today with things like education and healthcare. I just propose to try it with even more important things, like food.
So, answer me. Call what the middle ground? By what you say, things could be anywhere between 1 - 99 % regulations without any other details.
Just WHERE is this middle ground and WHAT is it? You have to actually say that and provide justification. Hell, I have justification for my proposed 0 % government regulations, which is very specific. You have said nothing specific and justified nothing. To fulfill this obligation, you would need a whole bureaucracy of European Union to regulate thousands of market items. Unless you do that, "middle ground" is just a buzzword.

The answer is, there's no point in centrally enforced government regulations, except corporate greed and lobbying. There's no principle, it's mostly arbitrary and it's enforced by violence and financed by offers you can't refuse. (taxes)

(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes. Because things happen for reasons.

Turns out a lot of the reasons boil down to "we can't assume perfect good faith on behalf of everybody forever". Go figure.

Incidentally, armed forces and law enforcement are different things. Were you ignorant of the distinction, or did you just wish to be disingenuous for rhetorical effect?
What if I say "we can't assume perfect faith on behalf of everybody in the government forever?" If someone fails me on the market, I just don't give him my money. What happens if I don't want to give my money to the government? I get my door knocked down, my stuff taken and sold. If I resist this robbery, someone's gun is going to have a malfunction.

And yeah, there are differences between armed forces of the military and armed men of the police. But from the point of view of civilians, there is damn little difference. Except military men usually kill abroad and come home to commit suicides from PTSD.

(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  OK, amoral corporations are dangerous. But who created the corporations?
People did.
People with violent monopoly did. Everyone knows what happens if they don't go along with their ideas. Bad, bad things.

(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I wouldn't have guessed you'd be so vacuously ideological as to attempt to claim that organised groups of people wouldn't exist without a highly specific and contextual civil framework, but there you go...
I don't have problem with organizations, only organizations with gun force monopoly.
I prefer organizations that can take no for an answer.

(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Uh, no, that's not how the law works. Anywhere. Individual and collective responsibility are distinct but non-exclusive legal concepts. Read a book.
Show me prisons for bankers.

(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I can vote for my MP. I can't vote for my university dean (ie, my boss).
You vote with your wallet for whoever gets elected or appointed, by paying taxes that go to his salary. If I got elected, I could create a nation-wide spiritual medicine program and your taxes would go to pay that. And I could force you to sign up, like Obama did. That's what government is. You don't want so much power in the world where people like me exist.

(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Governments can start wars and test thousands of nukes and I don't remember any government member ever going to jail.

Really? I can think of all kinds of people who've gone to jail after committing crimes.

People don't go to jail just for doing things you don't like. Did you not know that?[/quote] Unless they work for the government.

(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Woah. I'd really want such an institution to watch over my food.

It's cute that you're being so insistently fatuous about it, but, holy fuck, yes you do. Read a book. I even suggested one for you.

Or do you think "throwing the dead workers in with the meat" that would be better solved through a little of the ol' Magical Thinking™?
I don't know what to think. It's a novel written by a socialist. Socialists are notoriously uneducated at economy.
There is the official version and then some pretty good counter-arguments.
http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in...ustry.html
http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/11/1...he-jungle/
http://libertymaven.com/2010/06/08/the-t...lair/9929/

I can only look at this logically. Why don't you also point out bad working conditions in China? Ah, China is notorious for its government. Still, this non-democratic great nation has fewer prisoners than the "democratic" USA. So it's not even the factor of democracy that makes the difference.

Who or what prevents workers from organizing and negotiating better working conditions? The government, of course. Without the government, the big bad rich corporations would be no more powerful than a club of lottery winners. But government can out-gun anybody. If corporations have trouble, they bribe the government to send the police forces to beat up or shoot the workers. That's why working conditions are bad.

In theory, people could shave their heads to Mohawk hair crest and go rioting. Government could shoot everyone as dictatorship, or workers could do the same and make a commune out of all industries. But in practice that doesn't happen, because toilet paper and toothpaste gets shipped around only in voluntary business conditions, where there is a reasonable certainty of getting the stuff paid for and not getting shot. A violent region is an economically forsaken region. A violent person is a forsaken person. A violent corporation is abandoned corporation. Unless of course government is involved. Then it's the opposite.

By the way, you don't work for the government in public sector as a teacher, by any chance? If so, then my mistake. I'd have better chance to talk a tapeworm into leaving the intestine. I really wouldn't want to convince you. If people like you believed what I say, that would actually harm my cause. I can however justify this risk in retrospect by an opportunity to show off my arguments.
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04-06-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Now imagine that dollar gets bankrupt out of existence in a financial crisis. How would you secure a new, non-governmental source of financing for such a useful institution?

Well duh. Keeping that from happening is kinda the role of the Federal Reserve which I presume that you, like little frank, would like to dismantle.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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04-06-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  This is what happens today with things like education and healthcare. I just propose to try it with even more important things, like food.
So, answer me. Call what the middle ground? By what you say, things could be anywhere between 1 - 99 % regulations without any other details.
Just WHERE is this middle ground and WHAT is it? You have to actually say that and provide justification. Hell, I have justification for my proposed 0 % government regulations, which is very specific. You have said nothing specific and justified nothing. To fulfill this obligation, you would need a whole bureaucracy of European Union to regulate thousands of market items. Unless you do that, "middle ground" is just a buzzword.

...blah, blah,

more crazy, off the subject, rambling cant.

,,,blah, blah, blah

Go start your own crazy thread - this one is about crazy, lying asshole frankie. Yes

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-06-2014, 04:44 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(04-06-2014 04:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Now imagine that dollar gets bankrupt out of existence in a financial crisis. How would you secure a new, non-governmental source of financing for such a useful institution?

Well duh. Keeping that from happening is kinda the role of the Federal Reserve which I presume that you, like little frank, would like to dismantle.
Blink Well, if you believed that the Federal Reserve is an endless generator of debt money and maintainer of fake banks to fund near-perpetual American wars, you would want to dismantle it too. The truth is, America funds wars by money farted out by leprechauns and the Fed is innocent.

(04-06-2014 04:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  Go start your own crazy thread - this one is about crazy, lying asshole frankie. Yes
I suppose I will, Girly nailed it.
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04-06-2014, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 05:02 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(04-06-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  ... I don't remember any government member ever going to jail.

Goddam dude. Every year I get a briefing on Government employees going to jail for failing to follow the ethics defined by the CFR. Not many of us end up in jail because they make sure we are well aware of the consequences of violating ethics regulations. And hell, I live in PG County Maryland where the revolving door doesn't lead to a cushy lobbyist job, it leads to the County Executive doing a stint in the penitentiary. Goddam dude, do you live under a rock.

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04-06-2014, 05:22 PM
RE: What happened to frankjs?
No Luminon, I advocate as little government intervention as possible and the free market is the best system to lift people out of poverty but you are deluding yourself if you don't need the government to deal with externalities. I have yet to see Austrian economists to deal meaningfully with this concept, and understandably so, they believe in the market solving all ills.

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04-06-2014, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 05:44 PM by cjlr.)
RE: What happened to frankjs?
(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  This is what happens today with things like education and healthcare. I just propose to try it with even more important things, like food.
So, answer me. Call what the middle ground? By what you say, things could be anywhere between 1 - 99 % regulations without any other details.
Just WHERE is this middle ground and WHAT is it? You have to actually say that and provide justification.

Jesus fuck, dude.

I answer you with the same words that are deathbane to all monomaniacal ideologues:
it depends.

I do not know, a priori, absent context, what I would find to be an optimal solution to any given problem.

Unlike, apparently, True Believers™ like yourself, I guess.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Hell, I have justification for my proposed 0 % government regulations, which is very specific. You have said nothing specific and justified nothing. To fulfill this obligation, you would need a whole bureaucracy of European Union to regulate thousands of market items. Unless you do that, "middle ground" is just a buzzword.

No, my fatuous friend, because it depends.

Although, props for not referencing America this time, a country in which neither you nor I live.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The answer is, there's no point in centrally enforced government regulations, except corporate greed and lobbying. There's no principle, it's mostly arbitrary and it's enforced by violence and financed by offers you can't refuse. (taxes)

You failed grade school civics, didn't you?

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes. Because things happen for reasons.

Turns out a lot of the reasons boil down to "we can't assume perfect good faith on behalf of everybody forever". Go figure.

Incidentally, armed forces and law enforcement are different things. Were you ignorant of the distinction, or did you just wish to be disingenuous for rhetorical effect?
What if I say "we can't assume perfect faith on behalf of everybody in the government forever?"

Then I say "no shit, that's what law enforcement is for".

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If someone fails me on the market, I just don't give him my money.

That's real consolation after you've been killed by defective merchandise and negligent oversight.

Oh wait.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  What happens if I don't want to give my money to the government? I get my door knocked down, my stuff taken and sold. If I resist this robbery, someone's gun is going to have a malfunction.

And yeah, there are differences between armed forces of the military and armed men of the police. But from the point of view of civilians, there is damn little difference.

You know, except for all the differences.

But, uh, keep on driving that facetious and reductive train.

'Cause it's on an express trip to failure town.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Except military men usually kill abroad and come home to commit suicides from PTSD.

O hai dere, irrelevant emotional red herring!

You're good at those, I'll give you that.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  People did.
People with violent monopoly did.

Uh, no. Please read a book.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Everyone knows what happens if they don't go along with their ideas. Bad, bad things.

Who the fuck is "they"?

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I wouldn't have guessed you'd be so vacuously ideological as to attempt to claim that organised groups of people wouldn't exist without a highly specific and contextual civil framework, but there you go...
I don't have problem with organizations, only organizations with gun force monopoly.
I prefer organizations that can take no for an answer.

It's called voting. Try it sometime.

Better yet, visit one of the funderful wonderlands where there is no monopoly on force. Because they tend to be such nice places. Somalia's a perennial favourite; these days you might consider Syria, or the Donbass in Ukraine...

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Uh, no, that's not how the law works. Anywhere. Individual and collective responsibility are distinct but non-exclusive legal concepts. Read a book.
Show me prisons for bankers.

It may surprise you to know that they don't have their own prisons.

Convicted criminals serve their sentences in whatever facility the severity of their offense warrants.

But I guess you could go full-bore retard "lol conspiracy" on this, too. That's an option.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I can vote for my MP. I can't vote for my university dean (ie, my boss).
You vote with your wallet for whoever gets elected or appointed, by paying taxes that go to his salary. If I got elected, I could create a nation-wide spiritual medicine program and your taxes would go to pay that. And I could force you to sign up, like Obama did. That's what government is. You don't want so much power in the world where people like me exist.

That power doesn't exist outside your paranoid delusions.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Really? I can think of all kinds of people who've gone to jail after committing crimes.

People don't go to jail just for doing things you don't like. Did you not know that?
Unless they work for the government.

No.

There is no "unless".

Are you really so god-damn tedious that you're going to request a list of random governmental personnel (reminding you once again that whatever insane schizophrenic hivemind monolith you treat "Government" as, it's not accurate) who've been charged with criminal offense? Much less convicted?

I reiterate that people don't go to jail just for doing things you don't like. Nuclear testing in the 50s was not a crime. Go figure. Incidentally, read a book.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It's cute that you're being so insistently fatuous about it, but, holy fuck, yes you do. Read a book. I even suggested one for you.

Or do you think "throwing the dead workers in with the meat" that would be better solved through a little of the ol' Magical Thinking™?
I don't know what to think. It's a novel written by a socialist. Socialists are notoriously uneducated at economy.

Well, that's a disingenuous dismissal.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  There is the official version and then some pretty good counter-arguments.
http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in...ustry.html
http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/11/1...he-jungle/
http://libertymaven.com/2010/06/08/the-t...lair/9929/

You're calling a subversive text the fucking "official version"?

What drugs are you on, and where can I get some?

Regurgitating pseudo-libertarian apologia for gilded age corporate abuse is a new low, though. So there's that.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I can only look at this logically.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Why don't you also point out bad working conditions in China?

Who the fuck are you to say I don't?

Because, incidentally, I have. Repeatedly.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Ah, China is notorious for its government. Still, this non-democratic great nation has fewer prisoners than the "democratic" USA. So it's not even the factor of democracy that makes the difference.

Aaaaaaaaand there's the USA again. It may surprise you to learn this, but besides China and the United States, there are 200 other nations on this planet.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Who or what prevents workers from organizing and negotiating better working conditions? The government, of course.

Citation needed.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Without the government, the big bad rich corporations would be no more powerful than a club of lottery winners.

Citation needed.
(but that's directly contrary to all of human experience, so there's that)

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  But government can out-gun anybody. If corporations have trouble, they bribe the government to send the police forces to beat up or shoot the workers. That's why working conditions are bad.

Citation needed.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  In theory, people could shave their heads to Mohawk hair crest and go rioting.

I prefer voting. Less trouble to clean up afterwards.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Government could shoot everyone as dictatorship, or workers could do the same and make a commune out of all industries. But in practice that doesn't happen, because toilet paper and toothpaste gets shipped around only in voluntary business conditions, where there is a reasonable certainty of getting the stuff paid for and not getting shot. A violent region is an economically forsaken region. A violent person is a forsaken person. A violent corporation is abandoned corporation. Unless of course government is involved. Then it's the opposite.

Do you even try to make sense?

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  By the way, you don't work for the government in public sector as a teacher, by any chance? If so, then my mistake.

I'm a physicist at a university, you chucklefuck, if you'll recall our previous conversations...

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I'd have better chance to talk a tapeworm into leaving the intestine. I really wouldn't want to convince you.

Now that is a singularly self-absorbed, arrogant, delusional, unproductive, and pathetic attitude.

Congratulations!

You are very much living up to the glorious failure pile of a legacy frankksj left behind.

(04-06-2014 03:53 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If people like you believed what I say, that would actually harm my cause. I can however justify this risk in retrospect by an opportunity to show off my arguments.

Buddy, to denigrate the word "argument" by misapplying it to the sophomoric regurgitation you put out would by a crime against vocabulary.

I'm done with you.

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