What happens when we die?
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22-01-2012, 07:46 PM
RE: What happens when we die?
Religion... Angel

Got half the planet paying lip service to YHWH; with all these words and temples and doctrines and... bullshit. YHWH is 4; watch and learn...

I love my Gwynnies.

See 4? See death? "I," cross that shit out, "my Gwynnies" no longer a concern... and what's left? D'oh... I feel a revelation coming on.... Big Grin

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26-01-2012, 10:19 AM
RE: What happens when we die?
(22-01-2012 03:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 08:38 AM)89ace Wrote:  Little is actually known by what happens during the process of death. It is probably why religion can be such a toxic force in modern life. What we do know [scientifically] is that the brain doesn't die along with the rest of the body. It is actually one of the last organs to shut down.

1. Wrong. A great deal IS known about what happens during the process of death. Obviously you have no clinical experience, or studied physiology.

2. The "toxic force" of religion arises from many sources. The fear of death MAY be one of those, however most religionists SAY they believe in heaven, (and hell), so that may or may not be true. You're guessing.

3. The third statement, (about "scientifically" knowing) that the brain "doesn't die along with the rest of the body" if false. ("Scientific" citation please).
What happens ? Cerebral hypoxia happens. Before actual death, it happens in varrying degrees. People stroke, and have brain injuries, of varrying severity, all the time. Eventually total brain anoxia/hypoxia happens. The process of oxygen desaturation procedes in ALL bodily organs the instant that the circulatory system is compromised. In some cases it can be reversed, (CPR, ventillator). Brains require 0-2 and glucose to "work", (among other things).

4. "but by then we'd have no control over the process".....exactly when do you ever "have control" over "the process" ?

5. As BuddyChrist pointed out, your statement "and we would just cease to exist at that point", has, as an underlying assumption, that there IS a "we" (or I, or you), somehow separate from oxygenated, or patially oxygenated, and otherwise nourished brain cells. Obviously there is no pain if the "nervous" system is not intact.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/10/06...24x205.jpg


Oct. 6, 2009 -- A study of seven terminally ill patients found identical surges in brain activity moments before death, providing what may be physiological evidence of "out of body" experiences reported by people who survive near-death ordeals (http://science.howstuffworks.com/near-de...nce.htm)).

Doctors at George Washington University Medical Faculty Associates recorded brain activity (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/12/02...aves.html) of people dying from critical illnesses, such as cancer or heart attacks.
Moments before death (http://health.howstuffworks.com/dying.htm/printable), the patients experienced a burst in brain wave activity, with the spikes occurring at the same time before death and at comparable intensity and duration.
Writing in the October issue of the Journal of Palliative Medicine, the doctors theorize that the brain surges may be tied to widely reported near-death experiences which typically involve spiritual or religious attributes.

At first, doctors thought the electrical surges picked up by electroencephalographs were caused by other machines or cell phones in the rooms of dying patients, lead author Lakhmir Chawla told Discovery News.
The EECs were being used to monitor patients' level of consciousness as doctors and families wrestle with end-of-life issues.

"We did it when patients want to withdraw life support, to make sure patients are comfortable, as we withdraw care," Chawla said.
The medical staff kept seeing spikes in patients' brain waves just before death.
"We thought 'Hey, that was odd. What was that?'" Chawla said. "We thought there was a cell phone or a machine on in the room that created this anomaly. But then we started removing things, turning off cell phones and machines, and we saw it was still happening."
The doctors believe they are seeing the brain's neurons (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/12/15...head.html) discharge as they lose oxygen from lack of blood pressure.

"All the neurons are connected together and when they lose oxygen, their ability to maintain electrical potential goes away," Chawla said. "I think when people lose all their blood flow, their neurons all fire in very close proximity and you get a big domino effect. We think this could explain the spike."
It's possible a cutoff of oxygen would trigger a similar but recoverable event that becomes seared into memory.

"Not everyone reports this light sort of business. What you hear most often reported (in near-death experiences) is just a vivid memory," Chawla said.
Brain researcher Kevin Nelson at the University of Kentucky, who studies near-death experiences, said it's well known that when the brain is abruptly deprived of blood flow it gives off a burst of high voltage energy.

"It's unlikely with conventional brain wave recordings during death that they're going to see something that hasn't been seen already," Nelson said.
Chawla and colleagues would like to follow up their case study with a larger pool of patients outfitted with more sophisticated brain activity sensors."

Source (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/10/06...brain.html )

See also :

http://www.yourdiscovery.com/video/human...tion-pain/
http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/fundame...lness.html
http://www.acnp.org/g4/gn401000064/ch064.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_hypoxia
http://www.yourmemorymatters.com/BetterBrains
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/synapse.html
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts01.html
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=oxyg...i=scholart
http://science.education.nih.gov/supplem...-brain.htm

I love this - finally some science coming into the discussion. That was the point of this post. So, do you think when the brain starts this process of firing a ton of electrical energy, the visions of heaven and afterlife appear to the one who is passing? That would confirm a vivid dream-like state. The statement that the brain doesn't die along with the rest of the body is meant to coincide with the documentary made by National Geographic called "The Moment of Death." In the documentary, they say that the blood vessels in the arms and legs tighten to force more blood to the brain. The same thing happens when your body is cold. The body forces blood closer towards the inner body to keep it warm. I do think it is amazing how smart the body is without us even knowing it. When the body is in danger, as it is when you are in freezing temps, the process of warming you up will begin by restricting blood flow to your outer body.
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27-01-2012, 09:37 AM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2012 10:03 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What happens when we die?
(26-01-2012 10:19 AM)89ace Wrote:  I love this - finally some science coming into the discussion. That was the point of this post. So, do you think when the brain starts this process of firing a ton of electrical energy, the visions of heaven and afterlife appear to the one who is passing? That would confirm a vivid dream-like state. The statement that the brain doesn't die along with the rest of the body is meant to coincide with the documentary made by National Geographic called "The Moment of Death." In the documentary, they say that the blood vessels in the arms and legs tighten to force more blood to the brain. The same thing happens when your body is cold. The body forces blood closer towards the inner body to keep it warm. I do think it is amazing how smart the body is without us even knowing it. When the body is in danger, as it is when you are in freezing temps, the process of warming you up will begin by restricting blood flow to your outer body.

Ok, I see what you were alluding to. (Also you know do know that it is well known that some sort of similar oxygen sparing mechinism works on some people who would have otherwise "drowned" in cold water). There are many examples of (especially kids I think), who were pulled out of cold water, (maybe even a half hour later ??), who recovered, in varying degrees. Actually I don't know. There are theories that dreams are "random" firings, in an attempt to release "non-useful" memories, but I don't think I buy that, because dreams are not really "random". Fo example, I never dreamed about ANYTHING which I had no prior "experience" of, (real or imagined).

I DO know that, given that these "near death" thingys ALWAYS ONLY relate to the ONE person involved, and images and content that they ALREDY knew about, (relatives, and content they already had, or could not be projected from their PRIOR experience, or thought processes), that there is NO reason to think they are experiencing some other dimension, or some "content" they were otherwise, unaware of. I think they may result from a massive surge from a release of beta-endorphins...which are known to be released in other "stressful" or painful situations. That would account for the "hallucinations".
Once when I was in a serious car accident, I was on a Dilaudid drip in ICU. OMG. I had the WACKIEST dreams, and hallucinations. (My doc STILL teases me about the crap I was saying and doing and seeing....how embarrasing !) Anyway, The endorphin, (very similar to Morphine/narcotic), release would be very similar to an "overdose". I need to brush up on some neuro-physiology, and think about this.....stay tuned. Hopefully some others here will weigh in. There are some WAY smarter scientists here, than I.

Also..speaking of how "smart" your body is with regard to "survival mechanisms"...did you know that most people have, besides their normal heart beating mechanism, (the impulse arising from your atrium, traveling down to the ventricle, each beating separately, in sequence), there is, if something interrupts the impulse, (heart attack, or other pathology), that you, (or rather most people), have TWO other intrinsic heart rates/beating mechanisms. One is called a "nodal" or "junctional" rhythm, which arises between the atria, and the ventricles, BUT ONLY if it detects that the sinus, (atrial) rhythm is not present, and at least two alternate "vetricular" rhythms, (one an "accelerated" rhythm), and THE most fascinating one to me, ...a ventricular "escape" rhythm, often around the rate of 25-40 beats per minute. That is amazing how evolution could have built that in, .... to a system which almost never, ever, uses it. Usually it is seen either in someone who is infarcting, (having a heart attack), overdosed, or someone very near death. (Although I suppose that is backwards) ....the mammalian cardiac sysem would have evolved from a 3 chambered system, so , the slower, and "lower" mechanisms were already in place, and just "left over". ...sort of "artifact".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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18-02-2012, 09:15 AM
RE: What happens when we die?
Stop commenting how awesome our body is, I'll turn to intelligent design Tongue

On topic, death, myself, like every other human being on this planet, have no idea what happens, I'm inclined to the nothingness notion, I believe we just cease to exist, which I find very annoying, that is because I have a huge curiosity, and I really really really want to know what dark matter and dark energy are, and also I'd like to take a stroll in another planet, but I doubt I'll see those life extension technologies some say we'll develop.
But I'd like to day, someday, death is another awesome question, and we only have one opportunity to experience it (as far as we know) and I'd like to know if there's something else on the other side, because as we don't get real proof of what lies ahead, we have to doubt, and that doubt is rocket fuel for curiosity XD

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18-02-2012, 10:59 AM
RE: What happens when we die?
So..what happens when we die? Naturally no one really knows the answer so all we are left with is speculations. Some are based in logic ans science while others have a more...whimsical approach.

While it is nice and comfy to think we will be in some utopia with all these superior beings telling us what to do, where to go and what life to be re-born into...I am quite comfortable with the logical approach that say that when I die, that is it. No sparkly lights, no angels, no "loved" ones, no anything.

Show's over, the switch is in the "Off" position. Everything that I am, think or like is nothing more than the result of chemical interactions and when the body dies then so does these chemical interactions.
There will be no "me" to observe or feel any of it. "I" don't exist beyond my body because there is no "I" to begin with..it's basically a biological illusion we created as a result of our culture.
When I die everything will still go on as if nothing happened because, in essence, nothing actually did happen.

Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return.
To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange.
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19-02-2012, 05:27 PM
RE: What happens when we die?
(18-02-2012 10:59 AM)Dragon-Wolf Wrote:  Show's over, the switch is in the "Off" position. Everything that I am, think or like is nothing more than the result of chemical interactions and when the body dies then so does these chemical interactions.
There will be no "me" to observe or feel any of it. "I" don't exist beyond my body because there is no "I" to begin with..it's basically a biological illusion we created as a result of our culture.
When I die everything will still go on as if nothing happened because, in essence, nothing actually did happen.

Nice. But I doubt it's a cultural or societal thing, feels more like a biological imperative to me. Regardless, [Image: bravo-7466.gif]

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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19-02-2012, 06:30 PM
RE: What happens when we die?
89ace, you may like this:

Quote:Top 10 Occurrences Before and After Death

- Death Rattle
- Cheynes-Stokes Respiration
- Defecation
- Rigor Mortis
- Livor Mortis
- Algor Mortis
- Tache Noire
- Purge Fluid
- Degloving
- Maceration

The full explanation for each of the above:
http://listverse.com/2012/01/09/top-10-o...ter-death/

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21-02-2012, 06:30 PM
RE: What happens when we die?
I don't know, and I don't think anyone will know. How can living people know what happens after death...(waits for no one to reply)? Exactly. Although it would be interesting to actually know for what happens when we die.
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22-02-2012, 02:33 AM
RE: What happens when we die?
(18-01-2012 12:13 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  "I" am a collection of sensory perceptions, chemical balances, firing synapses, consciousness, and mental activities existing in the brain and working collectively to make up the construct of the mind. So naturally, when the brain dies, the mind is dispersed and "I" cease to exist.

To suggest that there is a part of us that survives death and lives on is just wishful thinking spawned from a fear of death. Or as Sam Harris would put it (at 1:27):


Sometimes I hear rumors of medical cases who suffered heavy brain damage and were able to recover partially or entirely. Or they were born with part of brain missing. Their consciousness, memories and functions returned, their mind was restored. Restored from what, from where? I wonder if anyone investigated and gathered such cases into a single book, because it doesn't seem like the same thing as neuroplasticity. Rerouting neurons is one thing, what about re-inventing whole functions of missing centers?

Anyway, it seems pretty straightforward what happens with the body and brain after death. Not much room for advancement or even philosophy in there. It's not a secret that I'm interested in subtle-material worlds and subtle bodies. If I'm ever proven right, the self survives in them after the biologic body dies. The cells surely die, but what as a proud conscious owner of etheric body I plan to get away in it, do some pranks to a nearest materialist and continue to the astral world.

Hey, I don't fear being dead. I know how it feels like, since one moment in meditation. In that one moment I ceased to exist. All things remained as they were, but they could not be called I, there was no person with my name anywhere. The things, the body, the mind... they were just sort of aware of themselves, so this memory got preserved, but there was no me in there. Quite a strange experience, because we're used to things happening when the self is there to see them. So it's all right if we cease to exist, only I have compelling reasons that this is not all there is and it's not fear of wishful thinking.

This is why I find it morally acceptable to inform people of possible principles of afterlife, in case they ever need the information. Of course, it must be the best model of afterlife I know of, most internally and externally logical. Most of things should take care of themselves, but imagine being a closed-minded materialist, dead-set on staying properly dead? How would the astral world would look like, all littered with catatonic discarnates? I believe that every dying person should be at least introduced to a model of afterlife, so he'll be able to react adequately to the situation. That's maybe why Tibetyan monks used to read aloud the instructions next to the deathbed.

(27-01-2012 09:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Ok, I see what you were alluding to. (Also you know do know that it is well known that some sort of similar oxygen sparing mechinism works on some people who would have otherwise "drowned" in cold water). There are many examples of (especially kids I think), who were pulled out of cold water, (maybe even a half hour later ??), who recovered, in varying degrees. Actually I don't know. There are theories that dreams are "random" firings, in an attempt to release "non-useful" memories, but I don't think I buy that, because dreams are not really "random". Fo example, I never dreamed about ANYTHING which I had no prior "experience" of, (real or imagined).
How's that possible? I almost always dream about places and people that I've never seen in real life. Villages, cities, buildings, industrial areas, whatever. My waking self doesn't know the people there, yet my dream acts familiarly with them. Sometimes I meet someone I know IRL, (family or so) but that's rare and usually not a big deal.

The only explanation you can think of is probably, that my brain makes a special effort to build unique environments, events and persons (and remember them subconsciously for re-visits) to accomodate to my belief in astral worlds.

(27-01-2012 09:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Once when I was in a serious car accident, I was on a Dilaudid drip in ICU. OMG. I had the WACKIEST dreams, and hallucinations. (My doc STILL teases me about the crap I was saying and doing and seeing....how embarrasing !) Anyway, The endorphin, (very similar to Morphine/narcotic), release would be very similar to an "overdose". I need to brush up on some neuro-physiology, and think about this.....stay tuned. Hopefully some others here will weigh in. There are some WAY smarter scientists here, than I.
What about sharing something wacky with us?
The endorphin overdose seems like something different. Usually it's just people who have a DMT emission in sleep paralysis or something and have a very vivid dream about being paralyzed and abducted by aliens, government researchers or in a series of cases, some crazy psycho with chloroform handkerchief.
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