What has given Christianity its staying power?
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29-01-2016, 07:51 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 04:24 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Tomasia, I think it is time you educated yourself. You are looking a little dim.

First this: Evolution by natural selection is one of the best substantiated theories in the history of science, supported by evidence from a wide variety of scientific disciplines, including paleontology, geology, genetics and developmental biology.

Just go here to learn the facts.

It is really pathetic to see a human deny such a well founded science that is used every day in industries across the planet.

You have basically fallen well behind modern times. Kind of like those moronic islamic fools who attempt to deny history by destroying ancient treasures.

I think it's time you read my post more accurately. I accept evolution, so you seem to be barking up the wrong tree.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-01-2016, 08:03 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(29-01-2016 07:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 04:24 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Tomasia, I think it is time you educated yourself. You are looking a little dim.

First this: Evolution by natural selection is one of the best substantiated theories in the history of science, supported by evidence from a wide variety of scientific disciplines, including paleontology, geology, genetics and developmental biology.

Just go here to learn the facts.

It is really pathetic to see a human deny such a well founded science that is used every day in industries across the planet.

You have basically fallen well behind modern times. Kind of like those moronic islamic fools who attempt to deny history by destroying ancient treasures.

I think it's time you read my post more accurately. I accept evolution, so you seem to be barking up the wrong tree.

Except your comments about consciousnesses and the absurdity and why you can't believe that, in the past few posts show that you don't.

What you believe in isn't evolution via natural selection at least. It's an evolution that was set in motion to a point consciousness would arrive in. That's not natural selection but it's God's pre-designed selection.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-01-2016, 08:23 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 01:46 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  It's subjective feels all the way down. That is simply insufficient and irrational.

It always seems to come down to the subjective, but never objective evidence free from biased interpretation that is the motive for belief.

The thing about biases is that people tend not to be able to recognize they're own bias. We're all trapped in our minds, trying to make sense of a reality outside of it, in conjunctions with the perspective of others, driven by a variety of complex external and internal factors. When we rationalize our motives we tend to settle for the most convenient, most flattering explanations, preserve our false autonomy.

Why is it that a man believes that Sandy Hook was staged? The person on the outside will have an entirely different observation than the one on the inside. The person who believes it was staged, will claim that the evidence points to this, that his diligence led him to uncover the truth, and that others are blind sheep. Many atheists (many theists too) subscribe to similar clean and overly polished narrative of themselves, the stuff of fiction, heroic and saintly. But the truth is far more complex and messy, and probably uncomfortable.

You want to imagine that there's something so dynamically different going on with the theists that what's going on with you, rather than seeking a perspective that's as much true for them as it is for you. Your relationships with religious people, with atheists, with your parents and siblings, etc.. contribute a great deal to your disbelief, as mines contribute to my beliefs. If we exchanged these aspects you'd likely be a theist, and I'd likely be an atheists.

Just like it seems to be easier to be an atheists for those who have negative view of religion, the same way factors like 9/11 drove the popularity of The God Delusion. If you views are generally positive, it's probably a bit harder to be an atheist. If you had a shitty atheist father, you might one day find yourself in the pews. If you had a shitty christian one, you might one day end up an anti-theist. If you identify or seek to identify with folks like Dennet, or Dawkins, or Tyson, if you feel some affinity for their types, than atheism because more appealing. If the people you get, if the people that get you are religious, if those who sense of life mirrors your own, you'll likely be a believer.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-01-2016, 08:31 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(29-01-2016 08:03 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Except your comments about consciousnesses and the absurdity and why you can't believe that, in the past few posts show that you don't.

What you believe in isn't evolution via natural selection at least. It's an evolution that was set in motion to a point consciousness would arrive in. That's not natural selection but it's God's pre-designed selection.

I'm not even sure what "God's pre-designed selection" means. Do you mean it sort of like "Methinks it is like a weasel" was "pre-designed" into the weasel program, to make the end result given enough time, inevitable? Though the algorithm and the process requires no tinkering after it's set to run.

If I did believe this, would it negate natural selection, I don't think so.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-01-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(29-01-2016 08:31 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-01-2016 08:03 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Except your comments about consciousnesses and the absurdity and why you can't believe that, in the past few posts show that you don't.

What you believe in isn't evolution via natural selection at least. It's an evolution that was set in motion to a point consciousness would arrive in. That's not natural selection but it's God's pre-designed selection.

I'm not even sure what "God's pre-designed selection" means. Do you mean it sort of like "Methinks it is like a weasel" was "pre-designed" into the weasel program, to make the end result given enough time, inevitable? Though the algorithm and the process requires no tinkering after it's set to run.

If I did believe this, would it negate natural selection, I don't think so.

If consciousness was a higher plane of being that was set to come out of the process. Then it's not entirely natural selection.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-01-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(29-01-2016 08:34 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If consciousness was a higher plane of being that was set to come out of the process. Then it's not entirely natural selection.

Those are not my words, so I'm not even sure what you mean by a "higher plane of being". I agree with the statement that consciousness arose out of natural selection.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-01-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(29-01-2016 08:23 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 01:46 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  It's subjective feels all the way down. That is simply insufficient and irrational.

It always seems to come down to the subjective, but never objective evidence free from biased interpretation that is the motive for belief.

The thing about biases is that people tend not to be able to recognize they're own bias. We're all trapped in our minds, trying to make sense of a reality outside of it, in conjunctions with the perspective of others, driven by a variety of complex external and internal factors. When we rationalize our motives we tend to settle for the most convenient, most flattering explanations, preserve our false autonomy.

Why is it that a man believes that Sandy Hook was staged? The person on the outside will have an entirely different observation than the one on the inside. The person who believes it was staged, will claim that the evidence points to this, that his diligence led him to uncover the truth, and that others are blind sheep. Many atheists (many theists too) subscribe to similar clean and overly polished narrative of themselves, the stuff of fiction, heroic and saintly. But the truth is far more complex and messy, and probably uncomfortable.

You want to imagine that there's something so dynamically different going on with the theists that what's going on with you, rather than seeking a perspective that's as much true for them as it is for you. Your relationships with religious people, with atheists, with your parents and siblings, etc.. contribute a great deal to your disbelief, as mines contribute to my beliefs. If we exchanged these aspects you'd likely be a theist, and I'd likely be an atheists.

Just like it seems to be easier to be an atheists for those who have negative view of religion, the same way factors like 9/11 drove the popularity of The God Delusion. If you views are generally positive, it's probably a bit harder to be an atheist. If you had a shitty atheist father, you might one day find yourself in the pews. If you had a shitty christian one, you might one day end up an anti-theist. If you identify or seek to identify with folks like Dennet, or Dawkins, or Tyson, if you feel some affinity for their types, than atheism because more appealing. If the people you get, if the people that get you are religious, if those who sense of life mirrors your own, you'll likely be a believer.

You're talking about social influences, I could care less about that, I'm referring to processes. What would get you to a closer depiction of reality? A process of faith or a process that prioritizes physical evidence evidence over subjective evidence?

Then when you come to conclusions that are based from this evidence, what are it's implications?

This is a fundamental difference in world views and it's not just a matter of opinion and social influence that determines this.

Part of the reason I became an atheist is because I wasn't satisfied with the answers I got with religion. I wanted to know it was true, not just take it on faith. It's this desire to know, rather than accept things on faith that drove me outside of the Christian apologist bubble to find the truth.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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29-01-2016, 08:49 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2016 08:52 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(29-01-2016 08:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-01-2016 08:34 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If consciousness was a higher plane of being that was set to come out of the process. Then it's not entirely natural selection.

Those are not my words, so I'm not even sure what you mean by a "higher plane of being". I agree with the statement that consciousness arose out of natural selection.

You have in the past, not those words, no.

But yesterday you said you find the notion of natural selection, as in the human consciousnesses and universe happening out of natural events absurd, AND stated it is a reason you "believe."

If god created the universe and allowed for it to evolve without direct influence, it still isn't the same notion as natural selection. A supernatural force here still put forth the outcomes, not a natural occurrence.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-01-2016, 09:09 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
http://www.ancient.eu/religion/
It's far too early to talk about Christianity's "staying power".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-01-2016, 09:19 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(29-01-2016 08:31 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-01-2016 08:03 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Except your comments about consciousnesses and the absurdity and why you can't believe that, in the past few posts show that you don't.

What you believe in isn't evolution via natural selection at least. It's an evolution that was set in motion to a point consciousness would arrive in. That's not natural selection but it's God's pre-designed selection.

I'm not even sure what "God's pre-designed selection" means. Do you mean it sort of like "Methinks it is like a weasel" was "pre-designed" into the weasel program, to make the end result given enough time, inevitable? Though the algorithm and the process requires no tinkering after it's set to run.

If I did believe this, would it negate natural selection, I don't think so.

It would utterly negate it unless the environment was controlled throughout the process.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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