What has given Christianity its staying power?
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27-01-2016, 02:32 PM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(27-01-2016 01:57 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(27-01-2016 01:11 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And you likely never will, for reasons that are likely more deeper then you’d care to imagine.


Sure, just ignore the man behind the curtain. Facepalm


You don't have any evidence, you are just too ignorant or delusional to be aware of that. But seeing as how you prefer vague analogies and proclamations over delivering the actual goods, let me rephrase that for you.


Not only is the emperor naked, he forgot to wipe.

The question is just a red herring. If all the available "evidence" can't lead you to hold any worldview let alone a religious one the problem isn't "evidence". It's like a man who continuously fails in his relationships thinking the problem is everyone else.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-01-2016, 02:51 PM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(27-01-2016 02:19 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  What evidence should I reconsider?
The various contradictory holy books?
Philosophical mind games that have been refuted a thousand times?
Someone else's personal experience?
Miracles, performed by everyone and verified by no one?

That kind of evidence does not inspire confidence...

Does all the available evidence confirm any worldview? Does all the evidence show that any particular worldview, like Eliminativism is true? You look at a series of observations, the results of series of laboratory experiments, at the end of the day you'd likely just be looking at series of dot's, but to connect these dots to form a worldview of the totality of these observations, requires more than merely a question of evidence.

It's very likely that we both can be presented with variety of thoroughly vetted scientific observations, and vouch for the validity of each and everyone, with no disputes in regards to the result, while holding entirely competing worldviews.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-01-2016, 05:59 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2016 07:12 PM by Chas.)
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(27-01-2016 11:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-01-2016 10:49 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  That is all atheism is: A response to a question. "Do you believe in god?"
It is not a world view.
It is not a philosophy.
It is not a belief system.

Since it is not any of those things, it is likely that the only thing a group of atheists have in common is their atheism.

As I noted above, groups of atheists are often only united in their response to religion. Opinions on nihilism, feminism, materialism, etc. have nothing to do with atheism.

Additionally, many atheists are just now awakening to the effects of their atheism on their worldviews and have not yet defined their belief systems.


In regards to atheism and belief systems:

It is my belief that as time passes , atheism will become more accepted and open. As this occurs new codes of ethics and belief systems will likely arise. I also believe that such codes of conduct and behavior can be built without reliance on supernatural authority.

It is our obligation to help shape these future belief systems, to promote free thinking, compassion and to avoid the mistakes we have seen in the past. At this point, it is quite plain that god is not going to help, either directly or indirectly.

If there is to be change, it is up to us.

You serve as an example of what I mean. I was speaking about a common tendency among self-identifying atheists, not the definition of the word "atheism". Finding actual atheists willing to defend a particular worldview, be it materialism, or any other, is like finding a unicorn. You'll rarely if ever find a self-identifying atheists, willing to argue for, or defend an alternative worldview to theism, the common tendency is to do what you do, to declare your lack of belief.

As a result, the group that should be offering a viable alternative to a theistic worldview, routinely show up to the table empty handed, seem to have just as much of a hard time selling a non-theistic worldview to non-theists, even more so than theist themselves.

For a theists such as myself it's relatively easy to maintain my theism with a considerable degree of confidence, because all the alternatives to it are so wanting, so premature, lacking actual defenders, that it becomes too easy to dismiss. It seems the most frequent promotion is for theist to trade in their beliefs, for a lack of belief. To go from believing in something, to believing in nothing. Trading a position of confidence, for aimlessness and confusion. That seems to be the best atheists have to offer, but it's terribly lacking.

Would you care to support these assertions?

I believe the universe is entirely natural, that there is no supernatural anything - no spirits, no gods, no ghoulies nor ghosties.
My worldview is naturalism because that is what all of the evidence indicates.
There is no evidence to support your theistic worldview.

I suspect that many here would agree.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-01-2016, 07:10 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2016 11:26 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(27-01-2016 11:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You serve as an example of what I mean. I was speaking about a common tendency among self-identifying atheists, not the definition of the word "atheism". Finding actual atheists willing to defend a particular worldview, be it materialism, or any other, is like finding a unicorn.
You'll rarely if ever find a self-identifying atheists, willing to argue for, or defend an alternative worldview to theism, the common tendency is to do what you do, to declare your lack of belief.
That's because that's what atheism is and what it means to atheists. It's not a world view nor does it have to provide one as that's not it's purpose in concept or in practical application. Just because our opposite, theism, is a load of bunk with a world view that doesn't comport to reality doesn't means it's up to us to provide an alternative. We are not on the hook for your failure, if you want a world view you can look to the sciences or philosophy if you must.
The fact that I don't have an alternative STI to offer compared to the syphilis that is your religion isn't a failure on my part lol. Atheism doesn't have to provide a "world view" any more than a half eaten peach cobbler does.

(27-01-2016 11:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  As a result, the group that should be offering a viable alternative to a theistic worldview, routinely show up to the table empty handed, seem to have just as much of a hard time selling a non-theistic worldview to non-theists, even more so than theist themselves.
Yet here we are with the number of non-believers growing every day and those among the religious are dropping dropping dropping. Especially in places that aren't dirt poor and uneducated. Funny that.Drinking Beverage

(27-01-2016 11:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  For a theists such as myself it's relatively easy to maintain my theism with a considerable degree of confidence, because all the alternatives to it are so wanting, so premature, lacking actual defenders, that it becomes too easy to dismiss.
That's an extremely stupid and short sighted reason to believe anything. "Which option is the most attractive to me personally?" " What do I personally stand to gain by adopting position X compared to staying with Position Y?". What intellectual dosh.


(27-01-2016 11:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It seems the most frequent promotion is for theist to trade in their beliefs, for a lack of belief. To go from believing in something, to believing in nothing.
This is a view shared by exactly 0% of the atheists I have ever meet but the view of the majority of dumb ass theists I've met. The god concept is not the totality of all belief, in fact it's an infinitesimal amount of what occupied my mind even before I realized I was an atheist, so no no one goes from "believing in something to believing in nothing" I went from believing in a god to not believing in a god and that's about as much as my view resembles your idiotic strawman. Which to say it bloody doesn't.


(27-01-2016 11:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Trading a position of confidence, for aimlessness and confusion.
More nonsense fuckery of you trying to tell us how we think and feel. First off just because you are confident in a position doesn't mean you should be, have justification for, or are right. History is full of confident idiots on the wrong side of what was correct.
Secondly fuck you and your strawman Tom, the vast majority of us here have shown a much better understanding of factual reality than you. I'm not aimless, nor are any of the atheists I've met, nor am I confused. Not being confused is one of the benefits of holding positions that are factually demonstrable or not based on unproven bullshit. The fact I don't allow myself to make up answers and pretend I know that which I patently don't doesn't make me "aimless and confused".

Getting real bored of you arguing based on the made up atheists in your head bro, really fucking bored.


(27-01-2016 11:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  That seems to be the best atheists have to offer, but it's terribly lacking.
Which would be an criticism worth listening to if it didn't come from a "world view" that causes baby mutilation, the oppression of homosexuals and half the worlds population based on gender, and vastly increased the spread of AID's in the world.

Shut up you muppet.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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27-01-2016, 07:37 PM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(26-01-2016 07:45 AM)Capn. Irrelevant Wrote:  It's as alive and well as it has ever been for over 2,000 years, even the most extreme forms of it. What do you think gives Christianity its staying power?

In a few words? The continual, unmitigated ignorance of many human beings.

Quote:Question 2: How long do you think it could possibly take for it to fade into known myth collectively, like say the worship of the Greek and Roman gods did?

Disregarding the fact that Christianity (and every religion) is based solely upon myths already, I'd be guessing that it'll be nothing more than an inopportune memory by the end of the current century. I'm just sorry I won't be alive to see the last religionist hung out to dry.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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27-01-2016, 07:53 PM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(26-01-2016 07:45 AM)Capn. Irrelevant Wrote:  It's as alive and well as it has ever been for over 2,000 years, even the most extreme forms of it. What do you think gives Christianity its staying power?

Question 2: How long do you think it could possibly take for it to fade into known myth collectively, like say the worship of the Greek and Roman gods did?

Power. Here's the thing, the Roman empire still exists, as xianity. Look at the history of Europe, run for many years by popes. In the east by Roman emperors until may 29 1453.

America, first invaded by xians from Europe. How was America's government, or on what model, formed. The Roman republic.

In England eventually power was reserved for the king, using xianity to control the populace.

Same story everywhere xian countries travelled on their missions of conquest. Also known as voyages of "discovery".

Look at American elections. Xian power at play always.

Power. Pure and simple.

How long will it last? In America I cannot say, both north and south. In Europe it appears to be dying and is in danger of conquest by islam.

Older and more intellectually mature countries such as China, have discarded most religion. Although Korea has a large xian following. Why? Possibly due to the American occupation.

This separates Korea from Japan, whose shinto heritage saw the Jesus on the cross figure as a loser. He had clearly been executed and had failed. The Koreans were less warlike than the Japanese. Korea has a 5000 year history and has never invaded another country. Except when made to by the Mongols.

The Americas seem to be the last bastion, with Greece and Italy in Europe.

At least that is how it looks from afar.

I hope I am incorrect.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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27-01-2016, 10:20 PM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(27-01-2016 02:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-01-2016 01:57 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Sure, just ignore the man behind the curtain. Facepalm


You don't have any evidence, you are just too ignorant or delusional to be aware of that. But seeing as how you prefer vague analogies and proclamations over delivering the actual goods, let me rephrase that for you.


Not only is the emperor naked, he forgot to wipe.

The question is just a red herring. If all the available "evidence" can't lead you to hold any worldview let alone a religious one the problem isn't "evidence". It's like a man who continuously fails in his relationships thinking the problem is everyone else.


No, just, no... Facepalm


If you're so incredulous in that you'll believe anything with little to no evidence, then you'll be the one tricking themselves into seeing the emperor's new clothes when he's instructed he should. You're arguing that if I don't see the clothes, the problem isn't that the emperor is in fact naked, the problem is that I am not embracing the lie. Fuck that, and fuck you.

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28-01-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(26-01-2016 07:45 AM)Capn. Irrelevant Wrote:  It's as alive and well as it has ever been for over 2,000 years, even the most extreme forms of it. What do you think gives Christianity its staying power?

Question 2: How long do you think it could possibly take for it to fade into known myth collectively, like say the worship of the Greek and Roman gods did?

I was talking with a christian friend a while back, and she asked me why I don't believe anymore. I told her about things that just don't add up, how there is never any evidence, how it doesn't sit right with me, etc. She told me that she also has doubts sometimes, so I asked her why does she then still hold onto to Christianity. This is basically what she told me:

What if the bible and Christianity is actually true, and she ends up going to hell because she lost her faith? If Christianity is true, she's safe because she goes to heaven, but I'm screwed. But if it isn't true, she doesn't lose anything.

I think this is a crap answer, because they way I see it, she does lose something. Freedom. But that's what she thinks, and I'm sure there's tons of others out there that think like this.

So I would say the two reasons that it's still around, that stand out more often, is that of guilt and fear.

And hopefully it loses momentum soon.

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. - Edmund Burke
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28-01-2016, 02:58 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 02:31 AM)Xaos Wrote:  What if the bible and Christianity is actually true, and she ends up going to hell because she lost her faith? If Christianity is true, she's safe because she goes to heaven, but I'm screwed. But if it isn't true, she doesn't lose anything.


If that ever comes up again, press her on why she isn't a Muslim, because what if they're right? In fact, it's a terrible bet. Betting on any one religion because "what if they're right?" is a bet against all of the religions that ever were, that are now, and that ever will be; it's literally a bet against infinity.

Ask her is she really thinks that if the god she prays to really did create the universe, that he's incapable of noticing that her belief amounts to little more than a fire insurance policy?

Ask her if she only acts like a decent person because of the promise of reward in the afterlife? Ask here if she thinks she'd turn into a sociopath if tomorrow she didn't believe in heaven? Either she's a decent person and will honestly answer 'no', or she'll say 'yes' to try to make a point and reveal instead just how warped and immature her worldview is.

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28-01-2016, 02:59 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 02:31 AM)Xaos Wrote:  What if the bible and Christianity is actually true, and she ends up going to hell because she lost her faith? If Christianity is true, she's safe because she goes to heaven, but I'm screwed. But if it isn't true, she doesn't lose anything.

It's amazing that the fallacy of Pascal's Wager still has this power. Do they never think to ask themselves the cost of believing the wrong thing? Your entire life wasted mumbling over some empty deity, the single precious life that you get?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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