What has given Christianity its staying power?
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28-01-2016, 08:07 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You're noncommittal you don't embrace anything, you don't hold to the emperor being clothed or naked. You lack a belief in whether he's clothed or naked.
That is essentially a lie. You have been told, repeatedly, by multiple posters, what they believe personally. The general consensus (in this conversation) is a belief/acceptance of the natural world and a lack of belief in a deity.
That is not noncommittal and that is not a failure to embrace anything. If you continue to assert this, then you are outright lying.

(28-01-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The common practices when atheists ask for evidence, is similar to when creationist ask for evidence for Evolution, or anything else for that matter. They're not really looking for evidence, but a way to categorize what others say serves as evidence, is not "evidence".
Want to talk about common practices? How about the common practices of apologetics? Shifting the burden of proof, using alternate definitions of words, ignoring answers to asked questions, ignoring questions asked them, denying validity of evidence, misstating terms and concepts, false generalizations.

(28-01-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The classic example is the historical Jesus debates, where many atheists here suggest there's no evidence of historical Jesus, when presented with accounts in the NT, writing by historians at the time, they'll just categorize all these aspects as "not evidence". They don't believe Jesus did not exist, they skillfully claim to merely lack a belief.
Yawn. No non-christian historians talked about christ until decades (maybe a century) after his death. If you are not going to cite links at least give some names so we can look them up.

(28-01-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I believe in God as confidently as believe I have two hands, or the sun is shining outside of my window. I don't even know where to begin to not believe. And it's not out of a lack of trying.
Your belief means nothing to me. Strength of belief? There are non-christians who are killing and dying for their beliefs. Does the strength of their beliefs make it true and yours false?

(28-01-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I find the suggestion that human life, our level of consciousness, creative and rational abilities, moral dimensions, our desire for meaning and truth, is result of a cosmic accident, absurd.
I find the idea of an imaginary friend who created everything (except awareness of his existence) absurd. An imaginary creator with who you have a deep and personal relationship and who listens when you pray to him and loves you unconditionally, but will torture you for eternity if you don't love him back.
And science is absurd?

(28-01-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The fact the your run of the mill atheists is unlikely to argue or defend this view, and prefers to say he lacks a belief, seems to speak volumes of this absurdity, that many atheists lack the confidence to declare God doesn't exist, the same way I would say Santa doesn't exist, that inability, that reluctance, that insecurity means something, one that illuminates theism more so than atheism.
It illuminates theism and reveals the underlying traits like gullibility, credulity, intolerance, misogyny, etc.

(28-01-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But these are only a small part of why I believe. If we were to ask the real question, as to why do I believe, and you don't? That's an interesting question, and the real answer is far more complex and richer than the premature rationalizations we offer.
Go fuck yourself. You have been told, again, multiple times by multiple posters, what and why they believe.

(28-01-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  My beliefs and yours ...
~snip~
Atheists such as yourself tend to be occupied with questions regarding the external world...
Your repeated attempts to tell me what I and everyone else think are pathetically wrong. As EvolutionKills noted above, that's creating a strawman.

(28-01-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You likely won't understand what it is I'm talking about here, it'll just be ripe for a series of misunderstanding. If you did understand I doubt you'd be an atheist.
And if you could understand rational thinking, the definitions of words like facts, evidence and theory, if you could grasp the ideas of logical fallacies, then you would likely be an atheist.

If you are truly arguing for the ONE TRUE GOD, then you should be able to do so in an honest manner without resorting to the dishonest tactics that you have been using.

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28-01-2016, 08:16 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 07:47 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  At best, all you could derive from that, is a generalized deism. If you can't enumerate specific characteristics of a god concept, then it's useless.

So how would you go about determining specific characteristics about something that has no physical basis?

By his work (revelation). Like the relationship between the author and his novel, based on the novel itself. That one can see by reading the The Brother's Karamazov, that it was a labor of love for it's writer. But it always come down to how each of us relate and understand that work.

If you see it all as hostile, you'll like see the authors relationship as hostile, if you see it as indifferent, you likely see the author as indifferent ( or non-existent). Where as if you see an order sustains by something profound, and beautiful, you see it as labor or love. A thing of awe, as much to him, as it is to us.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-01-2016, 08:36 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 07:47 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  At best, all you could derive from that, is a generalized deism. If you can't enumerate specific characteristics of a god concept, then it's useless.

So how would you go about determining specific characteristics about something that has no physical basis?

By his work (revelation). Like the relationship between the author and his novel, based on the novel itself. That one can see by reading the The Brother's Karamazov, that it was a labor of love for it's writer. But it always come down to how each of us relate and understand that work.

If you see it all as hostile, you'll like see the authors relationship as hostile, if you see it as indifferent, you likely see the author as indifferent ( or non-existent). Where as if you see an order sustains by something profound, and beautiful, you see it as labor or love. A thing of awe, as much to him, as it is to us.

Man it is so saddening to see you defend guesswork and magic. The thought process behind your 100% confident claims are no better than folks living 1000, 2000, 3000, even 4000 years ago! Damn man, come into the present and just leave the "feels", emotion and guesses at the door - no need for them now. Why do you defend christianity anyway if you accept evolution? Will you admit that all of the thousands of gods written about in the last few millennia came from the minds of men? Your inference based on what you see in the world means nothing. The dishonest statements, labelling of people, and accusations of how others think mean nothing!

Look outside your little bubble of fantasy and see that the world is beautiful and hostile, and we can understand it more each day, year, decade....

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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28-01-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 08:07 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  And if you could understand rational thinking, the definitions of words like facts, evidence and theory, if you could grasp the ideas of logical fallacies, then you would likely be an atheist.

Well, that probably wouldn’t be that hard, because here we’re just talking about the definition of a series of words and terms, in fact you can easily define all these terms, and may just as well be able to acknowledge your definitions, and understand them.

But the problem here wouldn’t be about understanding, but rather about commitments, and pledging allegiance to what can pass for as a doctrine, which declares a fidelity to believing only in things that follow a specific criteria. It wouldn’t just be a matter of understanding and agreeing with your definition, but pledging fidelity to your commitments, and presuppositions.

Which is not really possible, and in reality would require a rewinding of the clock, and requires a different life trajectory, different sets of experiences, different family life, different cultural and social dynamics etc…


Quote:You have been told, again, multiple times by multiple posters, what and why they believe.

Yea I have, but those reasons are just not true, even though the person strongly believes so. They’re simplistic, and convenient responses, but with questionable veracity. Because that’s just not how shit works, neither for you, or for me, unless you’re from another planet where shit works differently. The truth here requires a little more self-awareness, that is not as easy to muster.

Quote:Yawn. No non-christian historians talked about christ until decades (maybe a century) after his death. If you are not going to cite links at least give some names so we can look them up.

I wasn’t trying to reignite another historical Jesus debate. But pointing out that even when not referring to God’s existence, but in regards to as an example the existence of a historical Jesus, a question which for most historians is settled, many atheists tend to refer to the various documents and data, that lead historians like Ehrman to the conclusion that Jesus existed, as not constituting as “evidence”. Such atheists tend to be quite possess of the term, and have trouble translating the meaning outside of select fields of science. It becomes problematic for them when trying to translate the concept of evidence to the humanities, or the human domain.

I can to some degree decipher the meaning of evidence they are trying to get it, at least in terms of what they would be more inclined to apply the term to, and areas where they’d feel uncomfortable applying to. But if a man where to go out and believe only in things that fit this description, his depictions of reality would be so fractured, so partial, so distorted, and confused, that it would hold little meaning. In practice atheists conceptions of reality, are not formed exclusively by their conception of evidence. They tend to be contradictory, and inconsistent in this. Which is somewhat understandable, we acquire endless stream of beliefs as we go through life, and we don’t particular filter these things through our supposed criteria of evidence. When questioned we might try and justify it after the fact, but rarely is at a process from which we acquire our beliefs. Our prejudices, and inabilities to conceptualize, our resentments, our desire to preserve our sense of identity etc… always having their hand in the ordeal to uncover truth.


And the truth is more interesting than the feel good story we tell ourselves. The truth is also a sore spot, that touches on questions of self, where the tendency is to be provoked and angry when someone attempts to peel at it. Questions of God seems to be just as intrusive as questions about a man’s divorce. Questions of God and religion are always bound to strike a nerve.

Quote:Go fuck yourself.

Grow some thinker skin, I'm not trying to incite you, nor am I trying to coddle you either. So stop being so sensitive.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-01-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 08:04 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 07:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is not evidence because it does not adhere to any real standards of evidence. It is, at best, hearsay.

Ah, here comes Chas just proving my point. His whole shtick is about what does or does not constitute as evidence. But he’s not unique, it’s a common tactic. He seems to have some extremely stringent criteria for what constitutes as evidence, to the point that it’s not surprising that he has a hard time believing anything, that all he can do is parrot his disbelief.

You still refuse to understand that the 'shtick' here is about having evidence.
You continue to exhibit your lack of understanding of what evidence is. The only 'tactic' here is your dishonest attempts to redefine the word.

Quote:
Quote:You continue to use emotionally loaded terms like "cosmic accident" instead of neutral terms such as "natural process", and that is indicative of your inability to even imagine something outside of your worldview.

Not it just shows that you find the term “cosmic accident” provocative, loaded, that you prefer a euphemism instead. Which is not surprising for a man who seeks to not believe. You want the road paved in such a way that this comes on the easy.

Euphemism? No, you do not understand the meaning of that word.

Quote:
Quote:You ignore the evidence of the external world and live in your internal delusion.

You don’t really question this. This is something you want to believe, something it appears you have to believe, tied into the identity you so desperately want to perserve. It’s an entirely thoughtless claim. You claim that I ignore evidence of the external world? What evidence of the external world do I ignore, or refuse to accept? Clearly you trumped up this claim, without even being remotely curious or skeptical in regards to it’s validity.

The evidence supports naturalism and not supernaturalism. That is what you ignore.

Quote:
Quote:Naturalism explains what you see; evolution is senseless but you don't actually understand evolution, so you can's see that.

I don’t have a problem with evolution. I do think some aspects of it are incomplete, but that can be resolved overtime. But overall, I have no issue with it. Nor do I subscribe to some sort of divine tinkering mid-process. That once set in motion it’s able to operate without any sort of agent sticking his finger in from time to time. Based on it’s contingent parts, given enough time, it’ll produce this unique creature called humanity, a way of the cosmos to know itself, that desired to know how it came about, that would seek after truth and meaning, and doubt that he was the product of a cosmic accident.

Then you agree that naturalism explains it.

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28-01-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 10:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:You have been told, again, multiple times by multiple posters, what and why they believe.
Yea I have, but those reasons are just not true, even though the person strongly believes so. They’re simplistic, and convenient responses, but with questionable veracity.
The irony in this statement is simply staggering.

(28-01-2016 10:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The truth here requires a little more self-awareness, that is not as easy to muster.
Again the irony. A belief in naturalism & rationalism is much more self aware than a belief in a universe-creating-yet-personal-friend-god.

(28-01-2016 10:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I wasn’t trying to reignite another historical Jesus debate.
The historicity of jesus is just one aspect of the issue. What about holy texts from other religions? Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and 30,000+ versions of christianity. Why is your text better than theirs?

(28-01-2016 10:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Grow some thinker skin, I'm not trying to incite you, nor am I trying to coddle you either. So stop being so sensitive.
Grow some intellectual honesty, stop making false statements and stop telling me what I believe and what I think.

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28-01-2016, 11:05 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 10:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 08:07 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You have been told, again, multiple times by multiple posters, what and why they believe.

Yea I have, but those reasons are just not true, even though the person strongly believes so.
Good ol' idiot Tom, telling people he knows their thoughts better then they do. You're such a stupid lying cunt Tom, you really are.

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28-01-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 08:36 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  The thought process behind your 100% confident claims are no better than folks living 1000, 2000, 3000, even 4000 years ago! .

That’s probably true to some degree, I’m sure there were human beings 4000 years ago like myself, with a thought process similar to mine, but who just had a lot less information available to them to process. My brains way of processing information, is probably not much different than for other human beings, past or present. It’s just that we have better tools and more information available to us.

If I can remember my 6 year old self, and his thought process, there’s likely a considerable fidelity between him and myself now, while now better able to understand more complex sets of information, it's more a question of maturity, rather than a different thought process when in comes to my adult self.

And that confidence is primarily in regards to my reasoning ability, my ability to look at views, sift through them, and be confident in those things that I see as true. I’m not insecure about my beliefs, perhaps when I was younger. But in regards to the question of God, that’s a settled view, with very little appearing now a days to cast doubts on it, and more things appear to confirm it. iI’m more confident in my ability to reason, than I am in yours. And i’m sure you feel a similar degree of confidence when its come to your minds ability to reason.

Quote: Will you admit that all of the thousands of gods written about in the last few millennia came from the minds of men?

Only to the degree that all beliefs, true or false, mistaken, or correct ones come from the minds of men, provoked by factors both internal and external.

Quote:Look outside your little bubble of fantasy and see that the world is beautiful and hostile, and we can understand it more each day, year, decade….

I don’t think i’m the one living in a little bubble.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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28-01-2016, 11:59 AM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
(28-01-2016 11:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Look outside your little bubble of fantasy and see that the world is beautiful and hostile, and we can understand it more each day, year, decade….

I don’t think i’m the one living in a little bubble.

More unintended irony. Drinking Beverage

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28-01-2016, 12:08 PM
RE: What has given Christianity its staying power?
What has given christianity it's staying power?

Fear.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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