What he said. Luke 23:34
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18-10-2013, 01:05 PM
RE: What he said. Luke 23:34
(15-10-2013 10:02 AM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  This question is directed mainly for the apologist, but here goes. In Luke 23:34 (for others I realize this verse is not in some early manuscripts), but when Jesus prays, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." To whom is he referring? Is it the Romans, the Jews, the immediate crowd? Or is this, as I heard it before stated, a general prayer for mankind?

And did the Father honor that prayer?

The Greek word that is used there is a simple personal pronoun, so you have to look at the context and the sentence in which it was used.

It appears that Jesus was talking about the guys that were gambling over his robe.

As whether or not God did forgive them, I have no idea. They could have been elect; probably not, but may have.

Jesus wasn't omniscient. I think He was just expressing His love for all mankind in hopes that these men would have a regeneration.

He knew that the Father was the only one that knew who the elect were. This is why He ask Him to forgive them and didn't say, "I forgive them for they know not what they do."

This is the same reason why we prayer for others and pray for regeneration. We don't know who God has chosen, but it serves as a comfort for us to be able to hope and ask that God forgives them even though He might not.

As I've mentioned before about prayer: prayer isn't for God. It's for the pray-er. That prayer was for Jesus. It was a comfort for Him and a way to understand God's will through open communication with God. This is the same for any elect.

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18-10-2013, 01:08 PM
What he said. Luke 23:34
How was Jesus not omniscient if he was God?

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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18-10-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: What he said. Luke 23:34
(18-10-2013 01:08 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  How was Jesus not omniscient if he was God?

He was also human. In that, His superpowers were also cut accordingly. Jesus, while on Earth, had the same power as the Father but only what the Father bestowed upon Him. It's evident in the Bible that Jesus was not omniscient or omnipotent or omnipresent while He was on Earth. The Father limited these attributes.

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18-10-2013, 02:44 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2013 03:00 PM by Free.)
RE: What he said. Luke 23:34
(15-10-2013 10:02 AM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  This question is directed mainly for the apologist, but here goes. In Luke 23:34 (for others I realize this verse is not in some early manuscripts), but when Jesus prays, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." To whom is he referring? Is it the Romans, the Jews, the immediate crowd? Or is this, as I heard it before stated, a general prayer for mankind?

And did the Father honor that prayer?

Since the context of the verse used the word "they," and "they" refers to both those who crucified him and also to those who divided up his garments by casting lots, and we know the "they" were the Roman soldiers, then there is only one logical conclusion.

It was Joe Pesci.

Why? Because "he looks like a guy who can get things done," and "Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around."

Smile

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18-10-2013, 06:07 PM
What he said. Luke 23:34
(18-10-2013 01:23 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 01:08 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  How was Jesus not omniscient if he was God?

He was also human. In that, His superpowers were also cut accordingly. Jesus, while on Earth, had the same power as the Father but only what the Father bestowed upon Him. It's evident in the Bible that Jesus was not omniscient or omnipotent or omnipresent while He was on Earth. The Father limited these attributes.

Right as the theology goes, he was fully human and fully divine. If God the father limited those attributes, wasn't God limiting his own attributes, as God the father is the same as God the son? How can God limit himself?

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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18-10-2013, 10:00 PM
RE: What he said. Luke 23:34
(18-10-2013 06:07 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 01:23 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  He was also human. In that, His superpowers were also cut accordingly. Jesus, while on Earth, had the same power as the Father but only what the Father bestowed upon Him. It's evident in the Bible that Jesus was not omniscient or omnipotent or omnipresent while He was on Earth. The Father limited these attributes.

Right as the theology goes, he was fully human and fully divine. If God the father limited those attributes, wasn't God limiting his own attributes, as God the father is the same as God the son? How can God limit himself?

He created a piece of Himself and gave it limitations because Jesus was going to be bound by the universal laws of the Earth that God created.

God is not bound to laws nor do they apply to Him because He also exists outside the Earthly realm; however, since Jesus was going to exist only in the Earthly realm during His time on Earth, God bound Him to the laws that He established.

Outside the confines of Earth, omnipotence, omnscience, and omnipresence can exist, but they cannot exist solely in the confines of Earth. Our laws prohibit this.

This is why Jesus was limited. When God placed Himself on Earth and removed Himself from the infinite realm, He became bound to the finite laws that He created for humanity.

So, He no longer had the Three O's as Jesus.

Since God is omnipotent, there is no contradiction in this, in fact, it's the only way it could happen. An infinite cannot be within a finite; however, a finite can be within an infinite.

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19-10-2013, 01:12 AM
RE: What he said. Luke 23:34
I think KC is Poe-ing us.

Good one KC.

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20-10-2013, 10:10 AM
What he said. Luke 23:34
(18-10-2013 10:00 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 06:07 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  Right as the theology goes, he was fully human and fully divine. If God the father limited those attributes, wasn't God limiting his own attributes, as God the father is the same as God the son? How can God limit himself?

He created a piece of Himself and gave it limitations because Jesus was going to be bound by the universal laws of the Earth that God created.

God is not bound to laws nor do they apply to Him because He also exists outside the Earthly realm; however, since Jesus was going to exist only in the Earthly realm during His time on Earth, God bound Him to the laws that He established.

Outside the confines of Earth, omnipotence, omnscience, and omnipresence can exist, but they cannot exist solely in the confines of Earth. Our laws prohibit this.

This is why Jesus was limited. When God placed Himself on Earth and removed Himself from the infinite realm, He became bound to the finite laws that He created for humanity.

So, He no longer had the Three O's as Jesus.

Since God is omnipotent, there is no contradiction in this, in fact, it's the only way it could happen. An infinite cannot be within a finite; however, a finite can be within an infinite.

Can God be both inside the universe and outside the universe at the same time?

While God acts within the universe, does he locate himself inside the universe? If so, does he limit himself whenever he acts?

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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20-10-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: What he said. Luke 23:34
(18-10-2013 10:00 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 06:07 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  Right as the theology goes, he was fully human and fully divine. If God the father limited those attributes, wasn't God limiting his own attributes, as God the father is the same as God the son? How can God limit himself?

He created a piece of Himself and gave it limitations because Jesus was going to be bound by the universal laws of the Earth that God created.

God is not bound to laws nor do they apply to Him because He also exists outside the Earthly realm; however, since Jesus was going to exist only in the Earthly realm during His time on Earth, God bound Him to the laws that He established.

Outside the confines of Earth, omnipotence, omnscience, and omnipresence can exist, but they cannot exist solely in the confines of Earth. Our laws prohibit this.

This is why Jesus was limited. When God placed Himself on Earth and removed Himself from the infinite realm, He became bound to the finite laws that He created for humanity.

So, He no longer had the Three O's as Jesus.

Since God is omnipotent, there is no contradiction in this, in fact, it's the only way it could happen. An infinite cannot be within a finite; however, a finite can be within an infinite.
This is the part that confused me immensely, god is god but jesus was also god yet jesus talked to god. I have a more metaphorical approach to religion. Everyone is free to have their own opinions and I'm sure you also have this sentiment. The only thing I can use to wrap my head around all of this is that god was a metaphor for all things, for untapped insight or something to be strived for to be apart of. Knowable yet unknowable, known and unknown, in short god is everything. The beauty of a summers day, you're experiencing god. Something that fills you with wonder, that is also god. Something yet unknown questions of the universe unanswered, you're experiencing god. No, this is not to be a literal god, something such as this is a huge disconnect, no one can relate themselves to a literal god. Jesus is human, as god made himself human he becomes more relatable to his people. Everyone seems to praise Jesus more than to God since people can identify with Jesus.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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20-10-2013, 11:09 AM
RE: What he said. Luke 23:34
(15-10-2013 10:16 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Not many people know this but he is actually referring to the builders of the cross.

The 'father' he mentions is Joseph who in the past 30ish years has moved up the ranks to become a Quality Controller and Inspector of Carpentry.

Jesus has noticed the shoddy workmanship on the cross on which he is dangling and beseeches his real father to be lenient, knowing that the cross-carpentry team is under-staffed and under-trained.

Of course, some argue that this interpretation is too materialistic.

They know nothing!

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