What if God is a provable phenomenon?
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16-01-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
(16-01-2014 09:38 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  I feel like lookingforanswers is desperate, hence his handle. I, too, felt like you during my "deconversion." You so desperately want there to be a god so the first X amount of years of your life weren't a religious waste and total lie. And so as you start to doubt, you look for someone to give you assurance that there's something divine out there to give your life meaning.

Eventually you will learn it's OK to have doubts, and that "spirituality" you mention is just your subconscious clinging to a childhood security blanket that you need to put away in the closet.

It's a very typical religious thing to say, "Scientists are always trying to prove god doesn't exist," when in fact that statement couldn't be more wrong. Scientists want to prove what is true about the natural world and aren't on a crusade to prove any god doesn't exist. So, in your case, why would scientists want to prove one DOES exist? They have no interest in fake supernatural beings, only truth.

I'm time you will see the truth.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't agree with your characterization. I don't want to get into my own beliefs too much, but I also don't want to have my thoughts dismissed on an ad hominem basis, so just briefly...

I have been looking for answers for a long time. I was a philosophy student in undergrad and studied a lot of different ideas regarding God, morality, etc. Ultimately, I am still a theist, I believe in the existence of a God, but I believe that God gave us rationality and intelligence for a reason: So we can use it. So, I don't believe in blind faith and my morality and belief system is based on what makes sense rationally. I am always looking for answers, which is why my belief system has changed and evolved over time based on being presented with cogent arguments on certain points. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but I keep looking.

Honestly, the reason I am on these forums is to better understand atheism, because I happen to be in love with, and engaged to, an atheist. I can understand the aspect of atheism that involves rejecting modern religious institutions, which certainly have their issues, I just haven't been able to wrap my head around the idea of rejecting the existence of any creator based on the arguments with which I have been presented (which is why I started a discussion on that issue yesterday at http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...t-atheism)
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16-01-2014, 10:33 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2014 11:46 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
No "god' (whatever that means) is "provable". Even if it were true, what is "logically provable" to human brains is not how Reality, at it's most fundamental level, works, and THAT has been demonstrated. (Relativity, Uncertainty, the tensors of Dirac). Read my post on your other thread.
Is the Double Slit experiment "logical" ? No. Is the fact that time is relative to speed "logical" ? No.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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16-01-2014, 10:39 AM
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
God, as defined by many theists, can, by definition, never be examined through scientific inquiry because he is supernatural.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
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16-01-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
When the evidence stacks up for a god I'll start believing in it. Until then I'll take the conservative assumption that fairy tales are fairy tales. I feel especially justified in that notion by the nature of the various supposed god-beasts of the human tribes - their self-contradictory nature and their failure to comply with the kinds of parameters I would expect a highly advanced being to comply with.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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16-01-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
(16-01-2014 09:13 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  Imagine a scientist in the middle ages trying to convince his brethren that all matter is made up of atomic particles...

Actually, Epicurus (and some other people) made such a proposal long before the middle ages, and I don't believe he was ridiculed for it. It was just another interesting (but unprovable) theory at the time.
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16-01-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
(16-01-2014 09:13 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  So, why is the concept of the existence of a God rejected outright by atheists instead of treated in the same manner as atomic theory or radiowaves should have been treated by scientists if it were thought of in the middle ages: as a theory which explains and fits the current evidence, but which science does not have the current capability to prove or disprove? Considering the amazing advancements that science has made in the last 50 years or so, who's to say the capabilities that science will have in 100 years or 1000 years...who is to say that the ability to prove the existence of God isn't just a matter of time?
I am one who believes there is no god (as opposed to having no belief in a god due to the absence of evidence). I would not go so far as to say I am a gnostic atheist because I certainly don't know there is no god. There is always the possibility that a god could stand before me tomorrow in a way that I couldn't deny and I would certainly not be stupid enough to say "nah, you don't really exist". But I do believe that will never happen because I do believe there is no god.

Why? For the same reason that I don't believe there is an invisible leprechaun standing on my shoulder or a 100-headed person living somewhere on Earth or that a magical orb exists somewhere that can grant my every wish. I simply have no reason to believe these things. There is not one simple shred of evidence that would indicate any of those even might exist and I therefore see no reason why they should be assumed as a possibility until proven otherwise. To do so would mean I would have to assume literally anything is possible until proven otherwise. It makes far more sense to me to assume they don't exist unless I have at least some tiny indication to suggest there is at least a remotely real possibility that they do exist.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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16-01-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
(16-01-2014 09:13 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  So, why is the concept of the existence of a God rejected outright by atheists instead of treated in the same manner as atomic theory or radiowaves should have been treated by scientists if it were thought of in the middle ages: as a theory which explains and fits the current evidence, but which science does not have the current capability to prove or disprove?

The same reason you probably dismiss the existence of invisible pink unicorns. There's no reason to assume they exist in the first place.
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16-01-2014, 12:28 PM
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
(16-01-2014 09:13 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  So, why is the concept of the existence of a God rejected outright by atheists instead of treated in the same manner as atomic theory or radiowaves should have been treated by scientists if it were thought of in the middle ages: as a theory which explains and fits the current evidence, but which science does not have the current capability to prove or disprove?

For the same reason that a teapot orbiting the sun or a 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto is dismissed. AND, upon close *inspection* NOTHING about a "god" *fits* any "current evidence", (so your example is the fallacy of the false analogy). It's simply a preposterous notion, (which you cannot even define), deserving of dismissal.

You seem desperate.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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16-01-2014, 12:39 PM
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
Any provable phenomenon is just another law of nature. People who keep a god handy use it for two purposes: to explain things they're ignorant about, or as a grounds for hope for fixing a favorable outcome in situations they feel insufficiently able to fix for themselves. Neither of those is anything but mind's desire, an already thoroughly explained psychological dimension of mind. In that sense "god" is already a proven phenomenon, and is just another law of nature.
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16-01-2014, 12:42 PM
RE: What if God is a provable phenomenon?
Then we wouldn't be on this website, would we?

You can take the egotistically-fathomed dogmatic moral system you call what "should be" and shove it up your asshole for thinking it's applicable to anyone but yourself.
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