What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
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11-01-2016, 05:42 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2016 05:45 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
I like pops. He ain't stupid he just has trouble expressing himself. And when he posts from his phone it's pretty much incoherent. He should stick to using a standard grownup keyboard. And I'm pretty sure he is a pantheist or panentheist rather than your typical monotheist.

But I do have a question for him. When you encountered that radio dead zone that made you see God did you try any AM stations before your road to Damascus experience? AM travels a lot farther than FM.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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11-01-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
(11-01-2016 04:25 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Many socially strange people have discovered amazing things. The things they discovered were also generally regarded as false or fantastical initially.

If those things were later accepted then that was because there was evidence to support the claims. That is exactly how it should be. Claims without evidence should be rejected (not denied - there is a difference) until they are demonstrated to have merit. The time to believe is when there is evidence and the amount of evidence needed is proportional to the extraordinary nature of the claim.

You claim to have had an experience that affected you deeply. I am quite willing to accept that at face value since it is something that many people report. While I recognize that you could be making it all up, the consequences of my accepting it as probably true are minimal. Even there, I'm not sure I'd call it belief. I believe evolution happened because of the mountain of evidence for it; I believe my neighbor has a dog because I've seen it often; I accept that you had some kind of experience because that makes the most sense given your posting history.

You claim to know what caused that experience and that I do not even accept without evidence beyond your claim. I don't think that you have any way to accurately and objectively identify the cause; I don't know that anybody would under the conditions you described. The consequences of accepting your claim would be significant as it would call into question literally everything I have ever learned. That means that this part of the claim needs significant evidence before it could be considered even provisionally true.

Consider for a moment how you would have reacted had a stranger come up to you before your "revelation" and told you that they had heard from god and that you needed to believe them without anything more than their word. It would be a mark of utter gullibility to accept anything like that at face value.

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11-01-2016, 05:54 PM
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
(11-01-2016 05:47 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-01-2016 04:25 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Many socially strange people have discovered amazing things. The things they discovered were also generally regarded as false or fantastical initially.

If those things were later accepted then that was because there was evidence to support the claims. That is exactly how it should be. Claims without evidence should be rejected (not denied - there is a difference) until they are demonstrated to have merit. The time to believe is when there is evidence and the amount of evidence needed is proportional to the extraordinary nature of the claim.

You claim to have had an experience that affected you deeply. I am quite willing to accept that at face value since it is something that many people report. While I recognize that you could be making it all up, the consequences of my accepting it as probably true are minimal. Even there, I'm not sure I'd call it belief. I believe evolution happened because of the mountain of evidence for it; I believe my neighbor has a dog because I've seen it often; I accept that you had some kind of experience because that makes the most sense given your posting history.

You claim to know what caused that experience and that I do not even accept without evidence beyond your claim. I don't think that you have any way to accurately and objectively identify the cause; I don't know that anybody would under the conditions you described. The consequences of accepting your claim would be significant as it would call into question literally everything I have ever learned. That means that this part of the claim needs significant evidence before it could be considered even provisionally true.

Consider for a moment how you would have reacted had a stranger come up to you before your "revelation" and told you that they had heard from god and that you needed to believe them without anything more than their word. It would be a mark of utter gullibility to accept anything like that at face value.
Yes I agree.

That is one reason I repeatedly say that I cannot produce any proof for others but have proof for myself. That is why I say that people can't learn it or believe it through a third party.
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11-01-2016, 06:21 PM
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
(11-01-2016 05:54 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(11-01-2016 05:47 PM)unfogged Wrote:  If those things were later accepted then that was because there was evidence to support the claims. That is exactly how it should be. Claims without evidence should be rejected (not denied - there is a difference) until they are demonstrated to have merit. The time to believe is when there is evidence and the amount of evidence needed is proportional to the extraordinary nature of the claim.

You claim to have had an experience that affected you deeply. I am quite willing to accept that at face value since it is something that many people report. While I recognize that you could be making it all up, the consequences of my accepting it as probably true are minimal. Even there, I'm not sure I'd call it belief. I believe evolution happened because of the mountain of evidence for it; I believe my neighbor has a dog because I've seen it often; I accept that you had some kind of experience because that makes the most sense given your posting history.

You claim to know what caused that experience and that I do not even accept without evidence beyond your claim. I don't think that you have any way to accurately and objectively identify the cause; I don't know that anybody would under the conditions you described. The consequences of accepting your claim would be significant as it would call into question literally everything I have ever learned. That means that this part of the claim needs significant evidence before it could be considered even provisionally true.

Consider for a moment how you would have reacted had a stranger come up to you before your "revelation" and told you that they had heard from god and that you needed to believe them without anything more than their word. It would be a mark of utter gullibility to accept anything like that at face value.
Yes I agree.

That is one reason I repeatedly say that I cannot produce any proof for others but have proof for myself. That is why I say that people can't learn it or believe it through a third party.

Your experience is not proof even to you. You do not know the origin of the experience.
Your claim that it is from a particular source has no evidence to support it. None.

You have not applied any critical thinking to this, merely let your emotions rule.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-01-2016, 07:42 PM
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
(11-01-2016 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-01-2016 05:54 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yes I agree.

That is one reason I repeatedly say that I cannot produce any proof for others but have proof for myself. That is why I say that people can't learn it or believe it through a third party.

Your experience is not proof even to you. You do not know the origin of the experience.
Your claim that it is from a particular source has no evidence to support it. None.

You have not applied any critical thinking to this, merely let your emotions rule.
It was five years ago. I have applied all the critical thinking I possibly could to it. I have questioned it from every possible angle.
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11-01-2016, 07:47 PM
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
(11-01-2016 07:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(11-01-2016 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your experience is not proof even to you. You do not know the origin of the experience.
Your claim that it is from a particular source has no evidence to support it. None.

You have not applied any critical thinking to this, merely let your emotions rule.
It was five years ago. I have applied all the critical thinking I possibly could to it. I have questioned it from every possible angle.

Yet you are convinced that the least likely explanation is true. Facepalm

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-01-2016, 08:14 PM
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
(11-01-2016 07:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It was five years ago. I have applied all the critical thinking I possibly could to it. I have questioned it from every possible angle.

You really haven't. Or, rather, if you have, you have failed to understand how critical thinking actually works, lied to yourself about the answers, or both.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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11-01-2016, 11:49 PM
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
(11-01-2016 07:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(11-01-2016 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your experience is not proof even to you. You do not know the origin of the experience.
Your claim that it is from a particular source has no evidence to support it. None.

You have not applied any critical thinking to this, merely let your emotions rule.
It was five years ago. I have applied all the critical thinking I possibly could to it. I have questioned it from every possible angle.
Your issue is stopping 5 years ago. You shouldn't give in to such silly whims of accepting & cease questioning as you state you have.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-01-2016, 06:19 AM
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
(11-01-2016 04:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Assumption of any sort is not too cool, technically leaving all three options opened. Giving the nature of the non material, it may be some time before it can be tested scientifically. I think some sort of tests could be set up to monitor chemical changes in the brain, the possibility of changes in levels of cognitive aptitude, and acuteness of senses, among other things. Other ways the things can be tested is through trial of the things I claim by the individual. I'm sure there are other ways to collect data that would either confirm or deny what I believe. I doubt any of these things will be seen by me personally though. Tough break on my part. I'll keep fightin the good fight.

I do really appreciate the change in tone.

Thank you.

Personally, for me, I would tell God to go fuck himself. If he has some great message to pass on to humankind he can choose someone else, or even better, pass on the message Himself.

I'm going to live my life, I could care less about what a feckless, invisible God wants, I have better things to do than tilt at windmills for the benefit of Mr. Invisible.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-01-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: What if Satan was the real good and God was the real evil?
Then here's the question Mr. Pops:

If you know that what is "proof" to you but not to us, and understand fully why no atheist here would accept the foundation for your beliefs, why do you persist on preaching your unprovable positions at us?

And yes, preaching is what you're doing. You're not having a discussion or a debate. You are stating your unverifiable claims and beliefs as facts and answers to questions posed here. That's preaching. Whether you think it or not, that behavior is disrespectful and is enough to earn you the contempt you receive.

You have chosen the wrong place to shoot your woo wad.
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