What if the Universe is math?
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01-02-2014, 03:42 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
I mean there is no monolythic matter. You keep dividing it until you run into particles. And I don't think you can divide particles forever either. There is no half proton for instance.
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01-02-2014, 03:59 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
IMO I go for the Spinozian model:
Einstein, Max Tedmark and others do have a spinozian metaphysics to some extent. Spinoza of course lacked the physics - but definitely ahead of his time and persecuted for it pretty badly by the theist religious orthodoxies of his day - both Jewish + Christian and lucky for him he was not born in an Islamic state - however others like Averroes were in the Islamic world and had great influence on Spinoza.
Those with a spinozian like metaphysics such as Averroes are also considered apostates & heretics once Islam tightened its controls by the thought police eg by Al-Ghazali's return to orthodoxy and rejection of any "outside" philosophies particularly incorporating Aristotilianism or Platonism into orthodox theism.

The religious theistic traditions want to avoid such conclusions because it makes mathematics make God utterly irrelevant or in Spinoza's case equivocate God to mathematical reality (basically makes God impersonal & deterministic or we may add utterly indeterministic these days with quantum mathematics) - this leads to impersonal pantheism or Deism (....and atheism)

On the other end of the spectrum are the empirical based skeptics which will deny any metaphysics or "hidden mathematical realities" behind experience.
Eg David Hume would be an antidote to Spinozism and in a similar vein the logical empiricists (Vienna circle) Their take on it is we just see phenomena and are in no place to conjecture further onto what or how this phenomena is bound together causally. (once they rejected God as the hidden cause, they through the baby with the bathwater - Jesus needs to get out of the bath & kill himself and not splash everything in the process)
[in the metaphor the water would be the mathematical-logical underpinnings of reality - God is the unnecessary ghost]

The post modernists will also deny any spinozian or ultimate mathematical foundations, especially those who see logic & mathematics as only mental constructions and culturally relative. I do not see such a view as remotely credible !
The 'radical' postmodernists seem to be swimming in a self refuting torrent of contradictions probably in the name of tolerance to accept any view as either untrue or 'true in the perspective of who states it' whether individual, tribe, race, sex or nation (leads to solipsism & incoherence)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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01-02-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(01-02-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 03:25 PM)donotwant Wrote:  Math has many notions of infinity which do not apply. For instance you can't divide something forever.

We may be able to divide the continuum forever. Unless space and time are quantized.

(01-02-2014 03:42 PM)donotwant Wrote:  I mean there is no monolythic matter. You keep dividing it until you run into particles. And I don't think you can divide particles forever either. There is no half proton for instance.

I think this misses Tegmark's point. "All structures that exist mathematically exist also physically." That's his only premise and that is what is provocative because the implication seems to me that mathematics is not just a tool for physics, it subsumes physics. That's some serious hyper-rational meta-shit going on there. Reports of Rationalism's demise may have been premature.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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01-02-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(01-02-2014 03:42 PM)donotwant Wrote:  I mean there is no monolythic matter. You keep dividing it until you run into particles. And I don't think you can divide particles forever either. There is no half proton for instance.

I agree - that's EXACTLY my point. Fundamentally space-time is discrete.
(plank length or plank time)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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01-02-2014, 04:03 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(01-02-2014 03:40 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 03:32 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Calculus is just a short cut description of reality to make calculations easier (like a heuristic tool - a very good one).
You do not need to keep going on to plank space & plank time for every calculation !!!!!!!!
This tool also solves the problems of zeno's paradox without having to go into particle physics for basic calculations of velocity & momentum. Motion does actually occur ! (even if it is an emergent property on larger scales)

Yeah, I was just havin' some fun. Big Grin

(I do still hate me some maths, though. My mind is capable, my gumption lacks)

Is that a discrete moment of fun or a fun continuum ? Big Grin
If you keep dividing your fun moments when will it not be fun ? Weeping

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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01-02-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
But I think logic applies in all universes for instance. But I'm not sure if you can call logic a reality.
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01-02-2014, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2014 04:21 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(01-02-2014 03:59 PM)Baruch Wrote:  ... (leads to solipsism & incoherence) ...

Don't knock it 'til you've tasted it. Tongue

(01-02-2014 04:00 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 03:42 PM)donotwant Wrote:  I mean there is no monolythic matter. You keep dividing it until you run into particles. And I don't think you can divide particles forever either. There is no half proton for instance.

I agree - that's EXACTLY my point. Fundamentally space-time is discrete.
(plank length or plank time)

Think Tegmark's point is just 'cause we fundamentally can't bucketize the continuum to a finer fidelity than Planck time don't negate the infinite. We already know that infinity exists and is manifest in a variety of cardinality cloaks 'cause we got the math to prove it. Think that's Tegmark's point.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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01-02-2014, 04:37 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
Meh ...


The universe is infinite, so math cannot apply

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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01-02-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(01-02-2014 04:37 PM)Free Wrote:  Meh ...


The universe is infinite, so math cannot apply

WHAT!?Shocking
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02-02-2014, 07:11 AM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
Tegmark’s career is a rather unusual story, mixing reputable science with an increasingly strong taste for grandiose nonsense. In this book he indulges his inner crank, describing in detail an uttery empty vision of the “ultimate nature of reality.”

Peter Woit seems less than impressed. Tongue

However, it the blog linked above, these eggheads go back and forth about it. A good resource for deeper investigation. Thumbsup

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