What if the Universe is math?
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04-02-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(04-02-2014 09:40 AM)Free Wrote:  But if something is infinite, then anything finite to it could not apply. Something infinite could not exist for a finite period of time for the reasoning that it has absolutely no dimensions whatsoever, which includes age. There would be no way to measure it, including age.

In which case we can demonstrate that the observable universe is finite otherwise the sky would not be dark. Anywhere you look in the night sky you would be looking at an infinite amount of galaxies with infinite time for photons coming from it to reach your eye.

We also know that the big bang happened 13.75 billion years ago.
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04-02-2014, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 10:28 AM by Free.)
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(04-02-2014 09:58 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 09:40 AM)Free Wrote:  But if something is infinite, then anything finite to it could not apply. Something infinite could not exist for a finite period of time for the reasoning that it has absolutely no dimensions whatsoever, which includes age. There would be no way to measure it, including age.

In which case we can demonstrate that the observable universe is finite otherwise the sky would not be dark. Anywhere you look in the night sky you would be looking at an infinite amount of galaxies with infinite time for photons coming from it to reach your eye.

We also know that the big bang happened 13.75 billion years ago.

This theory must assume many things to be true. For example, what if dark matter and black holes are in between the light of a star and our point of view, in which light from that star cannot get past the dark matter or black hole? What if also many stars went super nova extinguishing their light? Also, since objects in the universe are constantly moving, light and darkness would be interchangeable due to many factors. Indeed, new stars could have been created so far away that their light has not yet reached us.

The theory must also assume that the universe is constantly full of matter, when as we know, energy is far more dominant.

The theory seems to depend on a stationary universe with no impeding factors, and assumes "perfect conditions."

Because of this, I cannot accept that theory as being realistic.

Also, we may "know" that a Big Bang happened 13.5 years ago, but the question we really should ask is:

Was it the only Big Bang?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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04-02-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(04-02-2014 10:17 AM)Free Wrote:  This theory must assume many things to be true. For example, what if dark matter and black holes are in between the light of a star and our point of view, in which light from that star cannot get past the dark matter or black hole? What if also many stars went super nova extinguishing their light? Also, since objects in the universe are constantly moving, light and darkness would be interchangeable due to many factors.

That link I posted earlier mentions this.

Quote:Any absorbing interstellar gas or dust would simply heat up until it reradiated all the starlight it absorbed, and the energy reaching us would be the same. By analogy, sprinkling the air in a hot oven with absorbing dust won’t cool it for very long.

We are talking about the concept of infinity here though. Divide infinity by a number and you get infinity. Subtract any number from it and you get infinity.


(04-02-2014 10:17 AM)Free Wrote:  Indeed, new stars could have been created so far away that their light has not yet reached us.

But you said yourself that the universe has to be of infinite age if it is infinite in all other dimensions. That means that there is infinite time for the light to reach us.

The only way the universe can be infinite is as I said earlier, that there is a finite number of galaxies clustered for a finite length of time in an infinite void.


(04-02-2014 10:17 AM)Free Wrote:  The theory must also assume that the universe is constantly full of matter, when as we know, energy is far more dominant.

Which I admitted to earlier, hence saying that the universe can only be infinite if it has a finite number of galaxies in an infinite void.


(04-02-2014 10:17 AM)Free Wrote:  Also, we may "know" that a Big Bang happened 13.5 years ago, but the question we really should ask is:

Was it the only Big Bang?


Let's assume that there is a large distance greater than 13.75 billion light years between our observable universe that has been expanding since the big bang and another potentially observable universe that was also created in a big bang.

An infinite universe means that there are still an infinite number of these potentially observable universes out there created over an infinite length of time which means that there won't be a dark patch in the sky.

... unless you have a finite number of potentially observable universes expanding from big bangs in an infinite void.

I'm not an astrophysicist and I understand that the expansion of the universe is understood to be more like a balloon being inflated rather than an infinite void. Or that there may be other universes. I am just trying to say that Olber's paradox suggests that this universe is finite.
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04-02-2014, 12:07 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(04-02-2014 11:01 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 10:17 AM)Free Wrote:  Indeed, new stars could have been created so far away that their light has not yet reached us.

But you said yourself that the universe has to be of infinite age if it is infinite in all other dimensions. That means that there is infinite time for the light to reach us.

True, but the impeding factors that I mentioned in my previous post would affect that process. If this were not true, then no new stars would ever become visible to us.

Quote:The only way the universe can be infinite is as I said earlier, that there is a finite number of galaxies clustered for a finite length of time in an infinite void.

But what if the galaxies are not finite, and are also infinite? To me it's a matter of energy and matter inter-changing as per their existence. Matter converts to energy, and vice-versa; a continuous cycle of change and fluctuation.

Your premise must assume that there is a finite amount of mass in an infinite universe. However, what if the universe, all mass, and all energy are also infinite?

Perhaps we should stop thinking that mass and energy are separate things, but instead are the same existence in different shapes and forms? Since we already know that energy cannot be created nor destroyed- but it exists nonetheless- then would it be incorrect to say that energy is an eternal force? If it cannot be created, how then does it exist without the properties of infinity and eternal-ism?

Quote:
(04-02-2014 10:17 AM)Free Wrote:  Also, we may "know" that a Big Bang happened 13.5 years ago, but the question we really should ask is:

Was it the only Big Bang?


Let's assume that there is a large distance greater than 13.75 billion light years between our observable universe that has been expanding since the big bang and another potentially observable universe that was also created in a big bang.

An infinite universe means that there are still an infinite number of these potentially observable universes out there created over an infinite length of time which means that there won't be a dark patch in the sky.

... unless you have a finite number of potentially observable universes expanding from big bangs in an infinite void.

I'm not an astrophysicist and I understand that the expansion of the universe is understood to be more like a balloon being inflated rather than an infinite void. Or that there may be other universes. I am just trying to say that Olber's paradox suggests that this universe is finite.

Perhaps we have a different understanding of what the universe actually is. You seem to accept that the universe is a creation that occurred from the Big Bang, but I am saying that the Big Bang occurred within the universe.

The universe pre-existed the Big Bang, and any other Big Bangs. What we see as matter and energy within what we call the "observable universe" is merely what we can detect from our point of view.

But it is not all there is to see, and we will never see all there is in an infinite universe.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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05-02-2014, 02:19 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
The universe is not math, math is used to get an understanding of how the universe works; that is all.

The wise change their minds when facts and experience so demand. The fool does not hear or does not heed. (Wis 4:12-13)
- The Good Book
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05-02-2014, 02:20 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
Maybe this explains it! I don't hate math, I just hate everything.

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12-02-2014, 06:50 AM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
I'm reading it. Guy's pretty specific about where mainstream physics is, and where he goes off into the wilderness. Wink

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12-02-2014, 05:54 PM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(12-02-2014 06:50 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I'm reading it. Guy's pretty specific about where mainstream physics is, and where he goes off into the wilderness. Wink

That's all that really matters isn't it. Gotta know whether you gonna need the walking stick, the machete or the chainsaw. Controversy sells books, provocateurs sell books, you know who don't sell books - physicists. Any physicist can tell you that.

You know what he's gonna find, right?

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As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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13-02-2014, 11:07 AM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2014 06:26 AM by BeccaBoo.)
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(04-02-2014 09:58 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 09:40 AM)Free Wrote:  But if something is infinite, then anything finite to it could not apply. Something infinite could not exist for a finite period of time for the reasoning that it has absolutely no dimensions whatsoever, which includes age. There would be no way to measure it, including age.

In which case we can demonstrate that the observable universe is finite otherwise the sky would not be dark. Anywhere you look in the night sky you would be looking at an infinite amount of galaxies with infinite time for photons coming from it to reach your eye.

We also know that the big bang happened 13.75 billion years ago.

Not quite.

With an infinite amount of galaxies there is still that much more space around them.

In short, infinite does not always imply "full," as in a night sky filled with light to which you were referring. For example, we can theoretically construct an infinitely stretching universe with a spiral of galaxies extending out and around an origin, one that didn't "fill up" the entire night sky with light. Now, just spread out those stars in the spiral a bit and you still don't have a sky filled with light.

Edit: And if the universe were infinite, there could be a whole lotta "dead" matter way out there whose light has already come and gone. So there could be an infinite universe but finite "lit" universe at any given moment.
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14-02-2014, 06:29 AM
RE: What if the Universe is math?
(01-02-2014 04:00 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 03:42 PM)donotwant Wrote:  I mean there is no monolythic matter. You keep dividing it until you run into particles. And I don't think you can divide particles forever either. There is no half proton for instance.

I agree - that's EXACTLY my point. Fundamentally space-time is discrete.
(plank length or plank time)

There's still infinities of position, however.
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