What in hell is going on?
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27-12-2011, 05:37 PM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2011 12:26 PM by Malleus.)
RE: What in hell is going on?
(27-12-2011 04:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It was a lesson to the disciples about “fruit”. As a believer you should always bear fruit, if you do not, you are useless.

Yes, but then again you *have to* find a way to approve and justify everything he does. That's a problem because you are incapable of drawing the line. If he spat somebody in the face you would have to say that he wasn't insulting. He was just hydrating the man's skin.

He was rude to his mother and relatives and therefore he taught us that he did not come to favor his own blood but the entire humanity. On the other hand if his behavior had been "People, here is my mother and I want to thank her for everything she does for me" that would have been a moving lesson on respect for one's parents. Even as a god he still respected his earthly mother.

That's why we can't rely too much on your explanations. You can only afford to be objective when that's convenient to your predetermined set of beliefs.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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27-12-2011, 05:50 PM
RE: What in hell is going on?
(27-12-2011 05:37 PM)Malleus Wrote:  If he spat somebody in the face you would have to say that he wasn't insulting. He was just hydrating the man's skin.

He was rude to his mother and relatives and therefore he taught us that he did not come to favor his own blood but the entire humanity. On the other hand if his behavior would have been "People, here is my mother and I want to thank her for everything she does for me" that would have been a moving lesson on respect for one's parents. Even as a god he still respected his earthly mother.

This is one of the best distillations of the apologist mindset I've ever seen.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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27-12-2011, 06:21 PM
RE: What in hell is going on?
The deal breaker for me (if I were Christian) is still entering heaven with the knowledge that my friends and loved ones would not only not be with me, but will themselves be in eternal torture or punishment. That is, IF that is what the bible says. Like I said, I've seen websites that interpret what is written in the bible about hell, and they run the gamut from "you will burn forever" to "it never really says physical torture", and "it's really only separation from god". Guess I have to go back and read those passages again...

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27-12-2011, 10:31 PM
RE: What in hell is going on?
(27-12-2011 05:37 PM)Malleus Wrote:  
(27-12-2011 04:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It was a lesson to the disciples about “fruit”. As a believer you should always bear fruit, if you do not, you are useless.

Yes, but then again you *have to* find a way to approve and justify everything he does. That's a problem because you are incapable of drawing the line. If he spat somebody in the face you would have to say that he wasn't insulting. He was just hydrating the man's skin.

He was rude to his mother and relatives and therefore he taught us that he did not come to favor his own blood but the entire humanity. On the other hand if his behavior would have been "People, here is my mother and I want to thank her for everything she does for me" that would have been a moving lesson on respect for one's parents. Even as a god he still respected his earthly mother.

That's why we can't rely too much on your explanations. You can only afford to be objective when that's convenient to your predetermined set of beliefs.

Fair enough, but my explanations are from a different point of view and mindset. I mean, do you REALLY want an entire forum vampires and no humans? Who would you feed on?

Moreover, yes, my excuses for Him are never ending, but is that really fair to hold that against me? I mean, to me, He's a perfect being incapable of sinning; therefore, any action that He does will be exalted (to me). If I didn't do this, would I be betraying my faith and what I believe? Ask anyone here... one thing they will tell you is that I'm consistent.

Can you tell a Christian to not make excuses for their God? Is that something that is even fair? Let's use this hypothetical exchange for an example:

KC: Hey, Shark. Hey Malleus.
M: Hey.
S: Hey, KC.
KC: So, what do you think about heaven?
S: I'm not sure. Are you talking about what it says in scripture?
M: There's no such thing as heaven.
KC: Malleus, your points don't matter because you don't believe in heaven.
M: Wait... what? Then why did you ask?
KC: *eats Malleus*
S: You know... he wasn't a baby, right?

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27-12-2011, 10:54 PM
RE: What in hell is going on?
Quote:Can you tell a Christian to not make excuses for their God? Is that something that is even fair?

Ok to clarify, you think your god is all powerful unlike any power we could imagine. Am I right to think this? If you say yes then I ask, Now you think this god needs you to make excuses for him? I do believe it's fair. Christians make claims that this being is all powerful and all knowing; yet, he needs you to make excuses for him. I see this as a real problem for Christians. There are no excuses that would ever be acceptable in the religious view of what a god is unless he wasn't as almighty and powerful as you say.

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27-12-2011, 11:53 PM
RE: What in hell is going on?
(27-12-2011 10:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Moreover, yes, my excuses for Him are never ending, but is that really fair to hold that against me? I mean, to me, He's a perfect being incapable of sinning; therefore, any action that He does will be exalted (to me).

But doesn't that just bring us to the Euthyphro question, KC? That is:

Does Jesus do the things he does because they are good/right/exalted, or are the things he does good/right/exalted because he does them? Or to put it another way, are there criteria for judging actions other than the fact that a diety does them? If the answer is No, then a statement like "God is good" becomes a tautology: God only does good things, but the definition of a good thing is something that God does.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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28-12-2011, 12:08 AM
RE: What in hell is going on?
(27-12-2011 11:53 PM)cufflink Wrote:  God only does good things, but the definition of a good thing is something that God does.

As far as I understand, this is KC's position. He does admit that God's def of good is not the standard one though Smile All deduced by pure logic since the test subject declines to answer for himself Tongue
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28-12-2011, 08:55 AM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2011 12:23 PM by Malleus.)
RE: What in hell is going on?
(27-12-2011 10:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fair enough, but my explanations are from a different point of view and mindset. I mean, do you REALLY want an entire forum vampires and no humans? Who would you feed on?

Moreover, yes, my excuses for Him are never ending, but is that really fair to hold that against me? I mean, to me, He's a perfect being incapable of sinning; therefore, any action that He does will be exalted (to me). If I didn't do this, would I be betraying my faith and what I believe? Ask anyone here... one thing they will tell you is that I'm consistent.

Can you tell a Christian to not make excuses for their God? Is that something that is even fair?

I never said that you should leave and/or shut up. And god is my witness Big Grin I'm letting a lot of what you're saying slide, but do you REALLY expect everything you're saying to go unchallenged?

I was challenging your inability to be objective and I will give you an example of what I mean.

Hitchens is still a sensitive topic for me because he just died. I still find myself thinking about him and deeply regretting that there will never again be something new he did or said. He will never again bitchslap someone for claiming the stupid shit that annoys me. That makes me sad.

However, if you come to me with his famous quote in which he supports the wars against Iraq and other Muslim countries "Every dead Muslim is a Muslim we don't have to fight", I will not defend that. I will not start explaining that he was a war reporter for a long time and he saw a lot of horrible shit done by Muslims and he only applied that quote to *those* Muslims. No. He never specified that some Muslims are better and this rule does not apply to them.

He was wrong about that. I don't want to point a gun at Jackrabbit just because he dresses like a Muslim, he acts like a Muslim and he looks like a Muslim but he is really a closeted Atheist trying to avoid death penalty for thinking freely. I don't want to kill the guy who sells me rare ingredients for my exotic food recipes. I only want to fight against people who try to kill me and/or steal my freedom, Muslim or not.

I am objective enough to see that his quote is extremist and wrong and I don't want anything to do with such a view.

When you defend Jesus for killing a tree because he happened to walk by it in the wrong season, when you defend him for making a whip and driving the merchants out of the temple (he didn't do it in an act of holy rage. He didn't pick up the first thing that could be used as a weapon and jump in the middle of them. He actually sat down and crafted a whip and THEN he started shouting and whipping) you do it not because it was good or the right thing for him to do. You do it because you have to. That's what I am challenging.

You're starting from "This is Jesus. If he did something, it was right". Jesus or the gospel authors never explained what you're explaining. You just need to find something, anything, or to make up an explanation that may fit.

We're starting from "this list of things are reasonable and the right thing to do. These other things are wrong" and we apply that rule to what we do, hear, see or read. I have to see that Jesus is good from his actions. I don't assume that he is right and pull out jiu-jitsu explanations for everything that looks stupid, wrong, or simply evil.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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28-12-2011, 09:11 AM
RE: What in hell is going on?
Heck no, I don't think what I say should go unchallenged.

It's completely situational... I guess that's the point I'm trying to convey.

The quasi question was theological in nature, and I gave a perfectly acceptable theological answer. You countered with a philosophical statement, which in essence was, "Why are you making excuses for a man?"

You know my theological stance: Jesus is God. God is perfect. Therefore anything Jesus does is right.

Asking me a question that doesn't parallel my core beliefs isn't going to produce much of anything. Again, not saying that you shouldn't challenge Christian logic or beliefs, but based on our interactions, I think it's safe to say you know what I think.

The reason apologetics exist is because Jesus and God act outside of what is normally considered "perfect behavior". Christians have to explain this because we believe our God is perfect while others see it as contradictory. You see it as blue even though I see it as red. As always, I think it boils down to the perspective of the individual.

I strive to see things from as many point of views as I can imagine.

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28-12-2011, 10:19 AM
RE: What in hell is going on?
(27-12-2011 05:37 PM)Malleus Wrote:  Yes, but then again you *have to* find a way to approve and justify everything he does. That's a problem because you are incapable of drawing the line. If he spat somebody in the face you would have to say that he wasn't insulting. He was just hydrating the man's skin.

I hope you don't mind if I steal this quote. That's simply the most priceless analogy I've seen in a very long time, and it will get some great reactions in the Christian forums.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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