What is God?
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03-05-2016, 10:53 PM
RE: What is God?
(03-05-2016 11:28 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I had a think the other day

Doubt it.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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03-05-2016, 11:12 PM
RE: What is God?
All gods are products of the Human imagination. They are rearrangements of perceptions of man mixed with impossible attributes that don't exist in reality. We are not created in God's image. God is created in our image with some magical powers thrown in. They are imaginary friends to comfort those who find reality difficult to deal with.

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03-05-2016, 11:45 PM
RE: What is God?
(03-05-2016 04:21 PM)epronovost Wrote:  In resume, God or gods are basically a mental projection of our civilisation and culture, more specifically a projection of our leaders, to nature and the cosmos at large. Gods are conception who serve to explain and humbanise our environment and make it more relatable and understandable.

Yes.

In hunter gatherer communities the god was a masculine hunter figure.

Why the Horus figure keeps coming up is that since I moved to the Near East I realized how clear the skies are, unlike Northern Europe. I never looked at the night sky when I was young but now I can see the star signs quite clearly and Orion dominates the sky in December. It is the most impressive star sign and I never noticed before that it has three stars and Jupiter behind it which form a massive cross. Behind that again is Canis Major.

I have to think that this is something which was influential on primitive minds and they caste themselves upon these stars. I fear that the crucifixion is a mocking of this religion by the Romans.

If you take your definition of religion then you can look at the god and work backwards to identify who the people are who have this god because it reflects their civilization and culture. I look around the area and see that the man/god figure of the Armenians is Hayek and Jospehus says the Jews were Armenians.

What I feel Bucky doesn't like is that it may not be the case that the god of the Old Testament is actually the god figure that people in this area worshipped back then and that the people we call "Jews" today aren't one and the same as who the Romans described as the Jews. It may be that the economic structure of trade and commerce back then involved a close association between different groups of people like the money lenders and the Phoenicians. But they all lived in Greater Armenia which included all of modern day Turkey and the Near East, Syria and Lebanon.

On the other hand, you can trace the Logos back to the Greeks so the New Testament is a Hellenistic work which places a concept at its center, not an ethnicity or masculinity. What it then preaches is simply the golden rule followed by a lot of examples. You can read the New Testament as a vehicle to indoctrinate people into Hellenistic moral thinking and ignore all the rest.
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03-05-2016, 11:58 PM
RE: What is God?
(03-05-2016 09:48 PM)debna27 Wrote:  
(03-05-2016 09:34 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Hi Debna,

This forum is for atheists. We don't believe there is a god.

What is it we are not believing in?

The whole of western history has at its center the notion of a god. All European monarchs considered they ruled by divine right. Somebody gave them this right. The Queen of England traces her ancestry back to King David, and Adam who was made by god... how? What is he that he did this?

Old religions were fertility based, masculine fertility. The god created by inseminating... by rain. That's how the Kashmir ice statue was formed, by a god raining down his semen on the planet and making things grow and he visited Mary and inseminated her.

But then the NT changes that and says god is a logos or concept of "good" which is a moral concept, not an inseminating fertility god.

Muslims still believe that god is up in the sky and Mohammed returned to him on a winged horse. They believe when they go to heaven they will be surrounded by 72 virgins each. It maintains the idea of god as a real, live being, somewhere up there, not a concept.

Oh. I see. When I say I don't believe in a god, I take that to encompass all meanings of "god" as a higher power, creator, moral concept or literal being, as I haven't seen any good evidence for the existence of any of those as put forward by a religious person or doctrine.
I think I understand your point now...the OT defines god as a literal being, the NT adds a conceptual meaning into the mix. Do I have it so far?


Yes, except a secularist would say that you can have a moral philosophy which doesn't depend on their being a god.

If, for instance, you take the Logos, from John, as meaning "logic" or "reason" then you get a different picture of what is being said The NT then goes on to say that this results in a moral philosophy based on the golden rule, "do unto others". That is a matter of reason or logic if you think about it because if everyone went around behaving selfishly, no one could trust anyone else and everyone would be stealing from you. That's not a good philosophy but the Old Testament is full of horror stories of a society where everyone was barbaric and out for themselves.

What is odd about the New Testament is that when you read it carefully it has cryptic bits where Jesus tells the disciples that only they have knowledge and most people aren't clever enough to understand what he is talking about, so he has to explain things in parables.
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04-05-2016, 12:16 AM
RE: What is God?
I imagine after the man who found it was told it was a sex toy he said "Oh, really".

I take your point about moderate Muslims. The problem I have is, where does this religion center its moral compass?

Extreme Islam is just that, extreme. The beliefs are the same and they don't clearly and unequivocally say that there is a rational moral principle at the center of it. If you read the Koran and/or listen to the rhetoric coming out of places like Jeddah, you realize that this religion at its core is ritualistic, barbaric etc etc.

Extreme Christians don't behead people. They knock on your door and try to get you to let "Jesus' love into your life". They are diametrically opposed. It may be you can put a gloss on Islam and interpret in a peaceful way but that is very hard if you actually take the time to read the Koran. Also, what is the point?

One German right wing political party just adopted an anti-Islam policy: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36182511 I know it is a right wing party but where would we have got if the intellectuals who opposed the Catholic Church had, instead, taken the view that it was an ok religion and no one should criticize anything it did?

It's difficult to discuss this these days, particularly if one lives in a Muslim society, as we both do, it appears. However, in the modern age, the way forward is, surely, to debunk these books, make people look carefully at what it is they are actually saying. What do they mean when they say "god". If you pick up the OT having just arrived from Mars, you would say "What is God?" because you would have no idea from your background that this was supposed to be some big male figure in the heavens.

They might, however, understand a logical/rational moral philosophy which says it is better if everyone treats everyone else the way they would want to be treated.
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04-05-2016, 12:26 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2016 12:30 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: What is God?
Bucky, what I find irritating about you is that, here we are on an atheistic forum, and I am pointing out that Jospephus says that the Jews came to Egypt from Armenia, which is where Sanliurfa is locate in Turkey, near Gobekli Tepe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Sanliurfa means Saintly Urfa. Abraham is supposed to have come from there. The OT says he came from Ur. The Armenians lived there and the Armenians are one and the same as the Sumerians of Ur, they are Arians.

I came here because I thought this was a place where all this old religious nonsense could be examined and debunked. You, however, never look at anything other than from a culturally Jewish perspective and I seriously don't think you realize you are doing it or the extent to which you are doing it.

And yes, the Jews who arrived in Egypt, according to your own peer reviewed works, were, I say, Armenian worshippers of Horus/Hayek and when they left they relocated with their wealth from their stay in Egyp in Herusalem, which we now spell with a "J" but which is named after their deity. It is a simple and perhaps unfortunate, for Judaism, fact.
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04-05-2016, 12:34 AM
RE: What is God?
God is our imaginary puppet that we use to control the masses and try to control natural events.

Modern moderate Islam is extreme.
Over a billion hold extreme islam as the norm and call it the moderate viewpoint.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-05-2016, 12:36 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2016 12:39 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: What is God?
And the House of David is a euphemism for the House of Tau or Dau. In Muslim countries David is pronounced Daud. Dawkins means kin of Dau. This is a reference to a religion which worshipped the Tau or phallus and Golbeki Tepi is a fertility religion site. The Turks, despite being Muslims, all venerate the eye of Horus which is the "Nazar" and if this practice goes back to when the country was Greater Armenia, then they are all Nazarenes.
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04-05-2016, 12:41 AM
RE: What is God?
(03-05-2016 11:58 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(03-05-2016 09:48 PM)debna27 Wrote:  Oh. I see. When I say I don't believe in a god, I take that to encompass all meanings of "god" as a higher power, creator, moral concept or literal being, as I haven't seen any good evidence for the existence of any of those as put forward by a religious person or doctrine.
I think I understand your point now...the OT defines god as a literal being, the NT adds a conceptual meaning into the mix. Do I have it so far?


Yes, except a secularist would say that you can have a moral philosophy which doesn't depend on their being a god.

If, for instance, you take the Logos, from John, as meaning "logic" or "reason" then you get a different picture of what is being said The NT then goes on to say that this results in a moral philosophy based on the golden rule, "do unto others". That is a matter of reason or logic if you think about it because if everyone went around behaving selfishly, no one could trust anyone else and everyone would be stealing from you. That's not a good philosophy but the Old Testament is full of horror stories of a society where everyone was barbaric and out for themselves.

What is odd about the New Testament is that when you read it carefully it has cryptic bits where Jesus tells the disciples that only they have knowledge and most people aren't clever enough to understand what he is talking about, so he has to explain things in parables.

I am a secularist. I very much agree that morality/moral philosophy does not require a god in the least. I'm not sure that I ever said anything that would indicate otherwise.

Maybe I just have a more limited experience if Christianity than you (which is very possible) but virtually no Christians that I know would say that the Logos referred to in John could be defined as "logic/reason" (not that you were suggesting that they do, but since the topic seems to be the behavior of modern Christians, this seems like a relevant issue).

Also, I'm half asleep at the moment so sorry if I don't respond for several hours. Would you say that the "cryptic bits" you refer to are the only, or even the most important, odd parts of the NT?
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04-05-2016, 02:14 AM
RE: What is God?
So Moses goes, "well, who the fuck are you," and god goes "I am that I am." Which is actually a pretty good answer, but the OP's kinda dumb, so there it is. Tongue

Viral meme, that's what god is; same as it ever was.

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