What is God?
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04-05-2016, 03:41 PM
RE: What is God?
(04-05-2016 09:38 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 12:16 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  ...
The problem I have is, where does this religion center its moral compass?
...

I'm far from convinced that a superstructure has a moral compass. Code of ethics / doctines etc. but not morality.

(04-05-2016 12:16 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  ...
Extreme Islam is just that, extreme. The beliefs are the same and they don't clearly and unequivocally say that there is a rational moral principle at the center of it. If you read the Koran and/or listen to the rhetoric coming out of places like Jeddah, you realize that this religion at its core is ritualistic, barbaric etc etc.
...

Once again, I agree with the latter remark but I'm confused now because I thought we were talking about Muslims not Islam.

(04-05-2016 12:16 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  ...
Extreme Christians don't behead people. They knock on your door and try to get you to let "Jesus' love into your life". They are diametrically opposed. It may be you can put a gloss on Islam and interpret in a peaceful way but that is very hard if you actually take the time to read the Koran. Also, what is the point?
...

What's the point of what? Of Islam? Or of reading the Koran?

Islam and Christianity are certainly not diametrically opposed. Christianity was just as troublesome in its youth.

Look at is this way:
Judaism has been around for maybe 4,000 years; Christianity for 2,000; Islam for 1,400.

The Jews are like a 40 year old... settled down, generally sorted out their meta, lots of patience for the grandchildren, secure enough to give a little to chosen charities.

Christians are like a 20 year old... Still the occasional bar-fight but realising that it's time to get a proper job, a mortgage and a steady girlfriend.

Islam is 14... petulant, know-it-all, lots of wanking.

Another 5 years (500) and there'll be a Monty Python Life of Al-Bryan bin Ali.

(04-05-2016 12:16 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  ...
One German right wing political party just adopted an anti-Islam policy: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36182511 I know it is a right wing party but where would we have got if the intellectuals who opposed the Catholic Church had, instead, taken the view that it was an ok religion and no one should criticize anything it did?
...

Well indeed. And Christianity was having similar tantrums 500 years ago. 498.5 years to be more precise and Luther was German too.

And we all know how that ended. Not pretty.

No


I don't distinguish between Islam and Muslims. There is, of course, a difference in that Muslims don't necessarily follow the Koran but for my purposes, whatever they are, I don't have the time or patience to make a distinction.

I don't agree with your view of these religions. I live in a Muslim society and observe their habits. None of them come from the Koran... If you read the Koran, you would not come away with it with a "lifestyle" which included what these people do and believe. That is because the Koran is utterly incomprehensible. What is more, no one reads it. The stats show that only about 3 percent of Muslims have read the Koran and they are only allowed to read it in the original Arabic so that really does mean that in most Muslim countries 0 per cent have read it.

Where this had led me is that I don't see the religion around me as having very much at all to do with the Koran. Yes they see Mohammed as a prophet, but he is a prophet of "Judaism". These people belong to the religion of this part of the world which predates Christianity. If you want to call that religion "Judaism" then these people are "Jews". They have a Cantor who calls out 5 times a day, they sacrifice a goat rather than their eldest child, their god is vengeful. They say they follow the religion of Abraham.

Christianity also follows, in many of its practices, the old religion. They mimic blood sacrifice by drinking the blood of Jesus and eating his flesh.

Judaism? I have no idea. When I worked for a Jewish law firm, I went to weddings etc and it all just seemed like an exclusive club with a lot of rituals.

I don't have much time for that aspect of religion so when you say Judaism has settled down I don't find that amusing. What have they settled down to? A lot of customs and traditions which are ethno-centric and exclusive? What kind of moral systems do they have.

I don't see life from the perspective of someone who is "from" a certain racial or class background. That is what causes wars and hatred in this world, whatever you want to call it or however you want to portray the relative "maturities" of these people. It seems to me that when you say that Jews have figured it all out, then what follows from that is that they shouldn't follow meaningless traditions on the pretext that they are of something special because of it.

I read these religious texts that they follow and they are full of bunkum and horse shit. The Koran is the worst and most of the Old Testament is just nonsense. The New Testament is a story of a superhero with a clear moral message. What Christians do in terms of following "traditions" and rituals has nothing to do with the moral philosophy of the religion.

It may be that one can take the position that all these rituals and customs, whatever religion they come from, are quaint to some degree, give people a sense of belonging, I don't know.

Why not just belong to the human race, live on a spec of dust hurtling through outer space around a tiny star and accept that as "enough". Live by a moral code and judge things according to a rational and sensible philosophy and treat everyone as your equal.

The trouble with Muslims and Jews is that they say they were born into it. I wasn't born a Christian. It's not an ethnicity.

When I said, "what is the point", I meant, what is the point of reading the Koran. Why would anyone want to spend any time reading it if they knew what it said? It is a pointless, silly mish mash of utter bilge water. It's a rant written by some deviously sociopathic individuals to inflict a regime of ignorance on a gullible and uneducated populace.

I was at the home of some Muslim friends, an army officer and his wife. The officer picked up his copy of the Koran, looked at me and said "this has everything in it you need to know about how to live". I said to him, "have you read it?" and he looked at me with steely eyes and said "No" and put it down. I asked my son in law who is a Muslim what the crescent moon and star on Muslim country flags means and he replied "If I knew that, I would be fasting".

Both Islam and Judaism are forms of mass indoctrination and hypnosis. It can't be otherwise. People in these cults go about wearing beanies, hats, scarves, strange clothes, doing odd things, going to strange buildings and performing peculiar acts, whether it is walking around in circles are moaning at a wall in Jerusalem.

Religion is simple. It isn't true. Anyone who follows it because they think they were born into it clearly hasn't had the intellect, from an early age, to be able to distinguish between reality and fairy tales. If they have kept their religion into adulthood it is because they haven't grown up. If they maintain their association with the religion because if makes them feel good to be separate, superior, different, then that is something which shows lack of maturity and is shameful. That is why I look at the books to see what they say rather than at the rituals of "dim wits" who can't get their heads out of a paper bag of their own religion.
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04-05-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: What is God?
(04-05-2016 02:37 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Alla believes she will be a god. If that is true I fear for her planet.
Perhaps she would hide from view, not speak to people, just "observe"
People will be left to use their imaginations and believe whether there is a god, many gods or no gods. And just imagine what they think their god(s) wants from them.

So really her planet will be as if there is no god at all. Her godly existence will be entirely irrelevant.
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04-05-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: What is God?
(04-05-2016 03:41 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 09:38 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I'm far from convinced that a superstructure has a moral compass. Code of ethics / doctines etc. but not morality.


Once again, I agree with the latter remark but I'm confused now because I thought we were talking about Muslims not Islam.


What's the point of what? Of Islam? Or of reading the Koran?

Islam and Christianity are certainly not diametrically opposed. Christianity was just as troublesome in its youth.

Look at is this way:
Judaism has been around for maybe 4,000 years; Christianity for 2,000; Islam for 1,400.

The Jews are like a 40 year old... settled down, generally sorted out their meta, lots of patience for the grandchildren, secure enough to give a little to chosen charities.

Christians are like a 20 year old... Still the occasional bar-fight but realising that it's time to get a proper job, a mortgage and a steady girlfriend.

Islam is 14... petulant, know-it-all, lots of wanking.

Another 5 years (500) and there'll be a Monty Python Life of Al-Bryan bin Ali.


Well indeed. And Christianity was having similar tantrums 500 years ago. 498.5 years to be more precise and Luther was German too.

And we all know how that ended. Not pretty.

No


I don't distinguish between Islam and Muslims. There is, of course, a difference in that Muslims don't necessarily follow the Koran but for my purposes, whatever they are, I don't have the time or patience to make a distinction.

I don't agree with your view of these religions. I live in a Muslim society and observe their habits. None of them come from the Koran... If you read the Koran, you would not come away with it with a "lifestyle" which included what these people do and believe. That is because the Koran is utterly incomprehensible. What is more, no one reads it. The stats show that only about 3 percent of Muslims have read the Koran and they are only allowed to read it in the original Arabic so that really does mean that in most Muslim countries 0 per cent have read it.

Where this had led me is that I don't see the religion around me as having very much at all to do with the Koran. Yes they see Mohammed as a prophet, but he is a prophet of "Judaism". These people belong to the religion of this part of the world which predates Christianity. If you want to call that religion "Judaism" then these people are "Jews". They have a Cantor who calls out 5 times a day, they sacrifice a goat rather than their eldest child, their god is vengeful. They say they follow the religion of Abraham.

Christianity also follows, in many of its practices, the old religion. They mimic blood sacrifice by drinking the blood of Jesus and eating his flesh.

Judaism? I have no idea. When I worked for a Jewish law firm, I went to weddings etc and it all just seemed like an exclusive club with a lot of rituals.

I don't have much time for that aspect of religion so when you say Judaism has settled down I don't find that amusing. What have they settled down to? A lot of customs and traditions which are ethno-centric and exclusive? What kind of moral systems do they have.

I don't see life from the perspective of someone who is "from" a certain racial or class background. That is what causes wars and hatred in this world, whatever you want to call it or however you want to portray the relative "maturities" of these people. It seems to me that when you say that Jews have figured it all out, then what follows from that is that they shouldn't follow meaningless traditions on the pretext that they are of something special because of it.

I read these religious texts that they follow and they are full of bunkum and horse shit. The Koran is the worst and most of the Old Testament is just nonsense. The New Testament is a story of a superhero with a clear moral message. What Christians do in terms of following "traditions" and rituals has nothing to do with the moral philosophy of the religion.

It may be that one can take the position that all these rituals and customs, whatever religion they come from, are quaint to some degree, give people a sense of belonging, I don't know.

Why not just belong to the human race, live on a spec of dust hurtling through outer space around a tiny star and accept that as "enough". Live by a moral code and judge things according to a rational and sensible philosophy and treat everyone as your equal.

The trouble with Muslims and Jews is that they say they were born into it. I wasn't born a Christian. It's not an ethnicity.

When I said, "what is the point", I meant, what is the point of reading the Koran. Why would anyone want to spend any time reading it if they knew what it said? It is a pointless, silly mish mash of utter bilge water. It's a rant written by some deviously sociopathic individuals to inflict a regime of ignorance on a gullible and uneducated populace.

I was at the home of some Muslim friends, an army officer and his wife. The officer picked up his copy of the Koran, looked at me and said "this has everything in it you need to know about how to live". I said to him, "have you read it?" and he looked at me with steely eyes and said "No" and put it down. I asked my son in law who is a Muslim what the crescent moon and star on Muslim country flags means and he replied "If I knew that, I would be fasting".

Both Islam and Judaism are forms of mass indoctrination and hypnosis. It can't be otherwise. People in these cults go about wearing beanies, hats, scarves, strange clothes, doing odd things, going to strange buildings and performing peculiar acts, whether it is walking around in circles are moaning at a wall in Jerusalem.

Religion is simple. It isn't true. Anyone who follows it because they think they were born into it clearly hasn't had the intellect, from an early age, to be able to distinguish between reality and fairy tales. If they have kept their religion into adulthood it is because they haven't grown up. If they maintain their association with the religion because if makes them feel good to be separate, superior, different, then that is something which shows lack of maturity and is shameful. That is why I look at the books to see what they say rather than at the rituals of "dim wits" who can't get their heads out of a paper bag of their own religion.
If you think his message is clear you must of skipped the Gospel of John.

Aka the saving grace of Jesus messages and quotes of modern conservatism

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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08-05-2016, 10:10 PM
RE: What is God?
You can read the NT in all sorts of ways.

What makes sense to me is to read it in a rational way, looking at the most essential point first and then those aspects which depend on it. The key concept is "God" and John defines that in what I say is a Hellenistic manner as the Logos. Flowing from that is the moral principle which is "do unto others". It is paralleled in Kant who starts with "reason" and from that flows the categorical imperative. Then follow examples and parables. The rest is not logically consistent and can be ignored or interpreted as a "story" used as a vehicle.

That approach makes the NT understandable to me and I think I can see it for what it is. If that works for other people, then I think it is a valid approach. Certainly, those to whom it is preached may not have as their starting point a moral issue and they look at it as a mystical story offering them eternal life etc. but perhaps that is the point of it, that it needs to be like that to accomplish its purpose.

Since looking at it that way, I no longer get annoyed by Christian nonsense as I see it as part of an attempt to bring about a civil society in what was a barbaric society.
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08-05-2016, 11:51 PM
RE: What is God?
(08-05-2016 10:10 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  You can read the NT in all sorts of ways.

What makes sense to me is to read it in a rational way, looking at the most essential point first and then those aspects which depend on it. The key concept is "God" and John defines that in what I say is a Hellenistic manner as the Logos. Flowing from that is the moral principle which is "do unto others". It is paralleled in Kant who starts with "reason" and from that flows the categorical imperative. Then follow examples and parables. The rest is not logically consistent and can be ignored or interpreted as a "story" used as a vehicle.

That approach makes the NT understandable to me and I think I can see it for what it is. If that works for other people, then I think it is a valid approach. Certainly, those to whom it is preached may not have as their starting point a moral issue and they look at it as a mystical story offering them eternal life etc. but perhaps that is the point of it, that it needs to be like that to accomplish its purpose.

Since looking at it that way, I no longer get annoyed by Christian nonsense as I see it as part of an attempt to bring about a civil society in what was a barbaric society.

So basically, nothing but post hoc rationalization. Well, that's a waste of everyone's time. Drinking Beverage

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11-05-2016, 12:15 PM
RE: What is God?
One thing is for sure: if religious people say god is something undefinable, then they start defining him, then they have failed in explaining who or what god is: Because there is no such thing as god. but if they define god as the creator of this world they should also say nature is god. Not only that, but we humans would fall in the category of god if by god you mean(creator). Look at the shape of the world only humans gave shape to it and not the stupid gods. Some might refer to god as the voice in a person's consciousness. In and out of this world there is no such thing as a real God, because if there was this imperfect world wouldn't exist. Imperfection wouldn't exist, time, death, disease, destiny, none of that shit would exist.

Another thing is: this imperfect universe has rules and religious people including the greatest religious figures have admitted that they have to play by the rules of the universe. These rules are also unfair rules, someone does the crime and another pays the consequences. One sows and the other reaps, it's all fucked up and unfair I declare myself an enemy of this stupid universal system and the ones who created it if there is such thing.
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11-05-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: What is God?
(04-05-2016 03:41 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(04-05-2016 09:38 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I'm far from convinced that a superstructure has a moral compass. Code of ethics / doctines etc. but not morality.


Once again, I agree with the latter remark but I'm confused now because I thought we were talking about Muslims not Islam.


What's the point of what? Of Islam? Or of reading the Koran?

Islam and Christianity are certainly not diametrically opposed. Christianity was just as troublesome in its youth.

Look at is this way:
Judaism has been around for maybe 4,000 years; Christianity for 2,000; Islam for 1,400.

The Jews are like a 40 year old... settled down, generally sorted out their meta, lots of patience for the grandchildren, secure enough to give a little to chosen charities.

Christians are like a 20 year old... Still the occasional bar-fight but realising that it's time to get a proper job, a mortgage and a steady girlfriend.

Islam is 14... petulant, know-it-all, lots of wanking.

Another 5 years (500) and there'll be a Monty Python Life of Al-Bryan bin Ali.


Well indeed. And Christianity was having similar tantrums 500 years ago. 498.5 years to be more precise and Luther was German too.

And we all know how that ended. Not pretty.

No


I don't distinguish between Islam and Muslims. There is, of course, a difference in that Muslims don't necessarily follow the Koran but for my purposes, whatever they are, I don't have the time or patience to make a distinction.

I don't agree with your view of these religions. I live in a Muslim society and observe their habits. None of them come from the Koran... If you read the Koran, you would not come away with it with a "lifestyle" which included what these people do and believe. That is because the Koran is utterly incomprehensible. What is more, no one reads it. The stats show that only about 3 percent of Muslims have read the Koran and they are only allowed to read it in the original Arabic so that really does mean that in most Muslim countries 0 per cent have read it.

Where this had led me is that I don't see the religion around me as having very much at all to do with the Koran. Yes they see Mohammed as a prophet, but he is a prophet of "Judaism". These people belong to the religion of this part of the world which predates Christianity. If you want to call that religion "Judaism" then these people are "Jews". They have a Cantor who calls out 5 times a day, they sacrifice a goat rather than their eldest child, their god is vengeful. They say they follow the religion of Abraham.

Christianity also follows, in many of its practices, the old religion. They mimic blood sacrifice by drinking the blood of Jesus and eating his flesh.

Judaism? I have no idea. When I worked for a Jewish law firm, I went to weddings etc and it all just seemed like an exclusive club with a lot of rituals.

I don't have much time for that aspect of religion so when you say Judaism has settled down I don't find that amusing. What have they settled down to? A lot of customs and traditions which are ethno-centric and exclusive? What kind of moral systems do they have.

I don't see life from the perspective of someone who is "from" a certain racial or class background. That is what causes wars and hatred in this world, whatever you want to call it or however you want to portray the relative "maturities" of these people. It seems to me that when you say that Jews have figured it all out, then what follows from that is that they shouldn't follow meaningless traditions on the pretext that they are of something special because of it.

I read these religious texts that they follow and they are full of bunkum and horse shit. The Koran is the worst and most of the Old Testament is just nonsense. The New Testament is a story of a superhero with a clear moral message. What Christians do in terms of following "traditions" and rituals has nothing to do with the moral philosophy of the religion.

It may be that one can take the position that all these rituals and customs, whatever religion they come from, are quaint to some degree, give people a sense of belonging, I don't know.

Why not just belong to the human race, live on a spec of dust hurtling through outer space around a tiny star and accept that as "enough". Live by a moral code and judge things according to a rational and sensible philosophy and treat everyone as your equal.

The trouble with Muslims and Jews is that they say they were born into it. I wasn't born a Christian. It's not an ethnicity.

When I said, "what is the point", I meant, what is the point of reading the Koran. Why would anyone want to spend any time reading it if they knew what it said? It is a pointless, silly mish mash of utter bilge water. It's a rant written by some deviously sociopathic individuals to inflict a regime of ignorance on a gullible and uneducated populace.

I was at the home of some Muslim friends, an army officer and his wife. The officer picked up his copy of the Koran, looked at me and said "this has everything in it you need to know about how to live". I said to him, "have you read it?" and he looked at me with steely eyes and said "No" and put it down. I asked my son in law who is a Muslim what the crescent moon and star on Muslim country flags means and he replied "If I knew that, I would be fasting".

Both Islam and Judaism are forms of mass indoctrination and hypnosis. It can't be otherwise. People in these cults go about wearing beanies, hats, scarves, strange clothes, doing odd things, going to strange buildings and performing peculiar acts, whether it is walking around in circles are moaning at a wall in Jerusalem.

Religion is simple. It isn't true. Anyone who follows it because they think they were born into it clearly hasn't had the intellect, from an early age, to be able to distinguish between reality and fairy tales. If they have kept their religion into adulthood it is because they haven't grown up. If they maintain their association with the religion because if makes them feel good to be separate, superior, different, then that is something which shows lack of maturity and is shameful. That is why I look at the books to see what they say rather than at the rituals of "dim wits" who can't get their heads out of a paper bag of their own religion.

All religions are one and the same their ritual might be slightly different, but in the end they believe in my enemies the creators of this fucked up world. This world is hell here is the unfairness, imperfection, the suffering, the fire etc... This is hell and the devils created the cosmic worlds, in other words (hell). That is my interpretation. That I why I am atheist because there was never a real good God who came to rescue human beings from this bullshit world. So fuck all gods they can all fuck themselves.
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