What is Spirit?
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19-01-2014, 11:37 AM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 10:52 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 10:45 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Read The Soul and its Mechanism by Alice A. Bailey. It's a coherent theory that sensibly answers your questions. If you have any real questions, that is.
http://www.light-weaver.com/bk/soul/toc.html

It's complete and utter bullshit. I've seen enough PET scans, and MRIs to know there ain't no woo there. You have not a shred of evidence, and neither does anyone else.
It's total crap. Present your evidence IN TOTAL, or STFU.

LUMINON - seriously !!! I have just read bits of this book and it is horrifically flawed ! Its quoting "medical sources" from the 1930's and before as if they are a guide to the latest medicine.
The chapter on the pineal gland is especially terribly inaccurate. The book is a mess. I study and work in the medical field - I can tell you first hand much of the contents is utterly erroneous not any "evidence"

I mean it quotes information SO OUT OF DATE !
Pineal gland ... and development of the human brain (Volume 1) - Tilney, Frederick, [b]1875-1938 !!!!!!!!!!!![/b]

...and by the way the pineal gland secrets melatonin. You can buy the stuff online and we occasionally use it in the hospital I work in.....I've tried it too.
Quote:"Numerous attempts have been made to determine what function, if any, the pineal body possesses. Is it indispensable to life, or does it play some role important to a particular phase of metabolic activity? We may perhaps concede that this organ does possess a function in man and in most mammals. It is not improbable that this function is particularly determined by an internal secretion, a secretion, however, which is certainly not indispensable to life. The exact influence of the pineal secretion is still obscure."
- Tilney, Frederick, M.D., The Pineal Gland, pp. 537, 542.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 11:41 AM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 11:21 AM)Baruch Wrote:  (In Islamic theology jinn are said to be creatures with free will, made from smokeless fire by Allah) - obviously !

Exactly. It's where the word "genie" comes from.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/jinn.htm

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-01-2014, 12:09 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 10:45 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 06:50 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Where in the human body does the spirit reside? How much of the body is required to contain a spirit? Do quadruple amputees have spirits? You could technically pare away the human body to just the head kept alive by a blood pump (even if it's only for a very short time). Does that head have a spirit?

Does it reside in the brain? How about people in persistent vegetative states? Alive, but no spirits?

Does it reside in the heart? How about people with heart transplants? Spirits in the wrong bodies?

And don't get me started on souls.

Doc
Why do you ask, when the answer you want is a scientific article in the Nature magazine?
Your questions are technical and I can easily answer them, but I don't know if you really care about the answers. Are you willing to suffer imperfect or incomplete answers, to acquaint yourself with present state of evidence whatever it is? Are you willing to study the subject out of curiosity and make up your own mind? Or do you just want an assurance that somebody, somewhere has a solid evidence in which you can trust without really knowing it? More so, do you just want to shut up those who are dangerously irrational, that is, going ahead without tangible evidence?

Read The Soul and its Mechanism by Alice A. Bailey. It's a coherent theory that sensibly answers your questions. If you mean your questions seriously, that is.
http://www.light-weaver.com/bk/soul/toc.html

docskeptic has a good point. If consciousness is an emergent phenomena then if you peel away various functions eg of the brain then when do you have "no spirit or no soul" Luminon seems to believe in an "elan vitale" like some magical force that brings things into being. However a functioning conscious human is a collection of many parts - each of those parts does not have consciousness but at some point emerges consciousness.
Obviously a quadriplegic is still going to be conscious, able to think and perceive, however some elements of embodied cognition will be impaired.
Lets start peeling the layers then: Do a real anatomy of docskeptic lesson:
1. Already quadriplegic - lets paralyse & anaesthetize the rest of the body & face.
(some suxamethonium will do the trick) OK, we can see someone like Stephen Hawking is certainly capable of a rich mental life - however he still feels sensations, only muscles paralysed. Lacking sensations will reduce embodied cognition drastically. - we are just beginning !


2.Make the person blind, deaf, unable to taste+ smell and further inhibit kinaesthetic sensations & even impair vestibular, Equilibrioception & proprioception.
- such a person is going to be severely impaired & unable to perceive anything never mind contemplating the platonic forms. Granted is they still have their memory they can rely on past experiences. By the way they will probably be highly disorientated because even a sensory deprivation chamber cannot achieve this !
- but we have not reached the big guns yet.

3. Remove both hippocampi & any other areas associated with memory. Now any trace of personality is seriously scrambled as a person has no autobiographical memory. Not can they even sense new inputs due to all sensory & kinaesthetic channels shut down.

4. Start cutting the links between the limbic systems and the frontal cortex - this alone radically alters personality and even though a person can think they cannot act on any thought being dissociated and unable to feel. Can then remove parts of the limbic system so the person does not feel basic emotions. (again this alone is a sever brain trauma and would give a healthy person an unrecognizable character.
Cutting off the frontal cortex with further cognitive impairments - we know what happened to Phineas Gage ! Neurology 101. A frontal cortex by itself in isolation is not going to produce a Plato & disembodied Descartes !!!

According to the meditation doctrines Luminon is using somehow this diminishment of function is "more" and leads to "better perception of truth & ultimate reality" or access to ultimate platonic forms.
In reality Luminon what we have is someone on the brink of a vegetative state - we still have not shut down the basic life support of the brain stem (heart, breathing) but this alone is unlikely to contribute to consciousness without a functioning Thalmic-cortical system (or just Thalmus)
Babies born with anencephaly are for the most part likely just to be unconscious reflexes not feeling or experiencing anything.

So DocsSkeptic's question is not totally rhetorical.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 10:52 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 10:45 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Read The Soul and its Mechanism by Alice A. Bailey. It's a coherent theory that sensibly answers your questions. If you have any real questions, that is.
http://www.light-weaver.com/bk/soul/toc.html

It's complete and utter bullshit.

Yeah, referencing an occultist and astrologer who's been dead more than 60 years don't lend no credibility to your case LuminousOne. Might as well reference Ego®. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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19-01-2014, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 12:32 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 10:52 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's complete and utter bullshit. I've seen enough PET scans, and MRIs to know there ain't no woo there. You have not a shred of evidence, and neither does anyone else.
It's total crap. Present your evidence IN TOTAL, or STFU.
PET scans and MRIs were designed to detect what their underlying theory said that it is possible to detect and nothing more. What if we want to detect something else? We move back to the beginning, we think we observe some different phenomenon, we make a theory, we use it to construct a whole different instrument, throw in a few million dollars, we run some tests, write some articles, contract some producers who will distribute the machine to all the hospitals, and then maybe you will believe me. This is not the stage we're at, this is not the kind of discussion we're having. We are still at the pre-scientific stage, a highly theoretical discussion that will probably not be interesting to you, if tangible market-grade evidence is all you care about. I'm sorry if you feel cheated, but I too feel cheated by people who ask technical questions but what they really mean is validation from their peer-reviewed journal authority.

OTOH, if you love your job as an endocrinologist and neurologist and want to learn about it as much as possible from all various points of view, go ahead, read.

(19-01-2014 10:59 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  I thought this was a thread on the Patriots.

Luminon, help me out. Please quote from the source you provided, answering the questions I posed. When I looked through the link, I saw no answers.

Doc
That is, because you didn't read it all, nor you did study it for years like me. Often things do not seem internally consistent until you learn all the parts that fit together. When you start reading this book, you are a beginner again. Which needs some patience and humility.

Human being is a composite being, consisting of vehicles of different grades of matter, which are less or more integrated together and less or more developed. The book is concerned with the second vehicle, the "etheric body", which is basically an electric appliance connecting the sum of higher bodies and spirit with our biologic body.
So to use your words, the body does not contain spirit, it is contained by a succession of vehicles of spirit. The body is passively influenced by the higher vehicles, especially the "etheric body". Removing an organ or two will cause minor problems, but not fatal. The Darwinistic evolution is largely a stand-alone process and the "etheric body" was mostly dormant, so the biologic body is pretty much an autonomous vehicle. Spirit is concerned more with qualities of thought and states of consciousness, than with keeping our animal biology going. However, once the person starts spiritually living and awakening the dormant centers of spirit, there are some serious psychological, health and endocrine changes and this is what the book is about.

This process is scientifically almost unknown, because it is by no means a rule in general population, but exception in people who live and think consciously and intentionally.

(19-01-2014 12:09 PM)Baruch Wrote:  According to the meditation doctrines Luminon is using somehow this diminishment of function is "more" and leads to "better perception of truth & ultimate reality" or access to ultimate platonic forms.
In reality Luminon what we have is someone on the brink of a vegetative state - we still have not shut down the basic life support of the brain stem (heart, breathing) but this alone is unlikely to contribute to consciousness without a functioning Thalmic-cortical system (or just Thalmus)
Babies born with anencephaly are for the most part likely just to be unconscious reflexes not feeling or experiencing anything.

So DocsSkeptic's question is not totally rhetorical.
What makes you think that more is less? It is not cutting away the brain that makes us more conscious, but integrating previously uncooperative parts and subordinating the evolutionary older parts to to more modern areas of the brain. Meditation and temporarily refraining from sensory distraction is a great help in this. This is not a vegetative state, it's the very opposite - an extremely conscious state.

Shutting down the chatter of mind does not mean shutting down the brain, it means freeing its resources for the great work of self-stimulation and self-integration of the nerve system. In theory (and my practice) a better integrated nerve system is a better receiver of phenomena that most people can not experience at all.
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19-01-2014, 12:28 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 11:33 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 11:09 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I forgot all about the useful definition of the word. I'm going to have to make a distillery and go into business selling Rob's Holy Spirits.

The *real* Holy Spirit is the Green Dragon. Heh.


http://boards.cannabis.com/concentrates/...bined.html

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Fucker. Now I want some. Tongue

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19-01-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 12:13 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 10:52 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's complete and utter bullshit.

Yeah, referencing an occultist and astrologer who's been dead more than 60 years don't lend no credibility to your case LuminousOne. Might as well reference Ego®. Tongue


Besides - why bother when there's a witch on call right here? Blink

*snicker snort*

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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19-01-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 12:34 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Besides - why bother when there's a witch on call right here? Blink

(18-01-2014 10:34 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  And seeing as how I've never really come to any verifiable conclusion I'm not going to be much help.

Consider

Woo from the won't. Tongue Banana_zorro Heart

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19-01-2014, 01:05 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 12:23 PM)Luminon Wrote:  PET scans and MRIs were designed to detect what their underlying theory said that it is possible to detect and nothing more. What if we want to detect something else? We move back to the beginning, we think we observe some different phenomenon, we make a theory, we use it to construct a whole different instrument, throw in a few million dollars, we run some tests, write some articles, contract some producers who will distribute the machine to all the hospitals, and then maybe you will believe me. This is not the stage we're at, this is not the kind of discussion we're having. We are still at the pre-scientific stage, a highly theoretical discussion that will probably not be interesting to you, if tangible market-grade evidence is all you care about. I'm sorry if you feel cheated, but I too feel cheated by people who ask technical questions but what they really mean is validation from their peer-reviewed journal authority.

Your words are meaningless. "Back to the *beginning* OF WHAT EXACTLY ?
You move nowhere. You say things which have NO MEANING. You have no observations, and no coherent theory. You are completely unable to present anything. You are not at a "pre-scientific" anything. What a GIGANTIC cop-out for bullshit snake-oil salesmen. You are a pathetic fraud. You have NOTHING. You attempt to make something from nothing. You have no education in Neuro-science, obviously. You are whistling in the dark. Go try to sell your fake bullshit somewhere else.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-01-2014, 01:10 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
This has got to be a top ten hit list in the dysfunctional thread department..... and reminds me of school... kids up front get all serious and the kids in back cracking jokes and flicking buggers at the girls. Ohmy

And then there was me the Angel ....... ( Evil_monster ) Big Grin
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