What is Spirit?
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19-01-2014, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 04:37 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 04:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 04:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No one's getting excited. In order for that to happen, you'd have to have something then even approached something valid. You have FAILED to present ONE piece of proof for your "other infrastructure". You have *claimed* something, and presented not one shred of evidence for it. You are yet another boring crazy charlatan.
I presented a whole damn free online book of evidence. I thought there is only one sight impaired forum member.

It bullshit woo woo. Never been peer reviewed, and *if* he knew something everyone else missed, he would have a Nobel. YOU however have presented NOT ONE reason to demonstrate that ANY of it relates in ANY way to "spirits". Maybe you have been just ingesting too much spirits. You fraud.
The fact is, if there WERE alternate electrical circuits, they would have been discerned in either electro-physiological cardiac rhythm disturbance pattern mapping/testing, OR brain circuit mapping in seizure disorder testing. You actually know SO fucking little about what you pretend to be drooling about you wouldn't know an electrical circuit from your ass.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-01-2014, 05:25 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
Luminon

Quote:Chas Wrote: What universals are you referring to? Have you gone Platonic?
And who said anything about random?
Luminon wrote
Universals are the basic properties of reality which can be contacted by minds and which allow us to know outside reality empirically and rationally. Such as identity, logic, linearity, non-contradiction and so on. This allows us to create truly universal and logical definitions

These universals are instantiated within space-time and are part of our universe. It does not make any sense to talk about universals as if they are separate “things” in other realms. This is a fallacy of reification. Interestingly Aristorle corrected this Platonistic notion and in modern terms Bertrand Russells Monism in contrast to Descartes Dualism.


Quote:Luminon wrote
This allows us to create truly universal and logical definitions such as universally preferable behavior, for example, which makes an interesting case for objective morality
We know that morality emerges from evolutionary pressures for cooperation and empathy – we know this from copious amounts of research into our origins and relation to other primates (see frans de waal on this video:
http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_d...orals.html )

Moral laws don’t exist in some other realms but instantiated within societies (imminent if you like). It does not make sense to talk about moral laws independently of sociology & human relations.
This doesn’t mean morality is not objective – there are general rules for what enhances cooperation, empathy, trust and reciprocity.

Quote:(Today 04:17 PM)Chas Wrote: All neurological evidence shows that every bit of personality resides in the brain.
There is no person without a brain.
Luminon wrote
Yes, but there is such a thing as a "higher self" or "true self" which manifests through the brain. Its existence was felt by countless people down the ages who meditated.
There may be higher levels of integration leading to better cognitive & emotional skills. However this does not cencesserally translate into “higher self” Looks like your system is infused with Elan Vitale & Ghosts essence.

Quote:Luminon wrote
My current guess is, this feeling is the result of increased inflow of reality through integration of the brain. Meditation does have an interconnecting effect on the brain - and as some scientist said, integration is the measure of consciousness in a system
Increased inflow of reality ? What does that even mean ?
Yes there may be techniques to increase integration of neurons and this would be related to the degree of consciousness eg when we sleep there is a lack of integration as parts of the brain dampen down & brain waves slow down. Meditation can in some cases improve integration, so can having friends, a love life, studying…
In some cases meditation may cause harm by increasing dissociation effects and cause less integration – shutting down some faculties (in a similar way to some dissociative drugs like ketamine).

Quote:Luminon wrote
We become more conscious through meditation and we may become aware of phenomena completely dwarfing our small everyday personality residing in the brain.
We can become more conscious by practicing straight forward observation eg when I went to a safari the guide was aware of animal behaviours we wouldn’t notice.
Meditation makes some people less aware & more solipsistic & detached – is some individuals this can even lead to pathology & worsen depression and anti-social behaviour (people who already have dissociative problems)
Quote:Luminon wrote
Thus the idea of mystical transcendent God is encountered by many people independently in our history, because they literally experience it.

Experience what ? They have an experience – that’s the subjective phenomenal experience.
Inferring it is God is a non-sequitur inference. It might be the devil tricking people, hallucination, mind games from the aliens using a master simulator, delusion or illusion
Quote:Luminon wrote
Note, that this is different from disruption of normal brain function through drugs.
Not necessarily – I know people and I myself have had both drug experiences that can be likened to mystical experiences in phenomenological terms. The interpretation of the experience may differ on the culture & setting. (eg my experience in India may be the Rama & In Europe Jesus and for a secular person an inspiring guide and an ancestor for some american Indian.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 05:30 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 04:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 04:15 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I presented a whole damn free online book of evidence. I thought there is only one sight impaired forum member.

It bullshit woo woo. Never been peer reviewed, and *if* he knew something everyone else missed, he would have a Nobel. YOU however have presented NOT ONE reason to demonstrate that ANY of it relates in ANY way to "spirits". Maybe you have been just ingesting too much spirits. You fraud.
The fact is, if there WERE alternate electrical circuits, they would have been discerned in either electro-physiological cardiac rhythm disturbance pattern mapping/testing, OR brain circuit mapping in seizure disorder testing. You actually know SO fucking little about what you pretend to be drooling about you wouldn't know an electrical circuit from your ass.
I have no idea what is this kind of testing - most likely it is completely unconnected. Brain is electrically isolated in skull and heart in pericardium, as far as small currents are concerned. What I mean is something sub-dermal or dermal.
Here, I found for you some digest of studies. Apparently, they say that people injected radioactive contrast isotopes into the body and they followed the known paths of meridians.
http://www.siteground147.com/~centreba/i...f=1&id=107

I have seen enough of convincing evidence for these circuits in electrodermal tests. I was tested with Voll's electro-acupuntcture device. The 70 kiloohms was a healthy value, but weakened organs got 50. Known, old and manifested diseased areas of the body got about 35 kiloohms.
But of course my usual reason for being convinced in existence of meridians is, that I feel them as a part of my body. Sometimes they can hurt quite a lot. Most people don't feel them at all, because they're not sensitive and they're not stimulating them consciously.

As for spirits, this isn't spirits yet, this is only a proposed interface. It will probably take a few decades and maybe a dozen new scientific fields before science will move on and discover another layer of human existence to which this one is an interface.
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19-01-2014, 05:31 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
Quote:Luminon wrote
I base this opinion on these sources: (and of course my own experience)
How God Changes Your Brain - Andrew Newberg
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...sciousness
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/73169...Experience

There may be evidence some types of meditation can increase integration and alter how we perceive,, perhaps enhancing cognition. However this does not infer God is changing anyone’s brain !
Navy Seals training has intensive excercises which increase soldiers awareness and can lead to integration of various cognitive skills – it does not follow that more integration means God is changing anyones brain.
In anycase the brain is changing all the time – sometimes with further integration, sometimes fluctuating to less integration – even in different parts to different extent. From none of this it follows that God is changing anything. (or that God even exists despite a subjective mystical experience)

(Today 04:17 PM)Chas Wrote: However, your insistence that the brain be human is entirely anthropocentric. What about non-humans? What about aliens?
Or are you insisting that only a biological brain can support or host a person? Are we back to élan vital, for which there is no evidence?

Quote:Luminon wrote
By this definition, a "man" is derived from the root of Sanskrit word "manas", which means mind, so "man" is literally "the thinking one". To think means to contact outside or objective reality in some way.
See my intro about universals and what you even mean by “contacting outside reality” Aristotle & Bertrand Russell et al make much more sense & in harmony with neuroscience and cognitive psychology than Plato or Descartes.

Quote:Luminon wrote
This is how we can distinguish a simulation, -which is completely enclosed and limited in itself- from a sentient being
Sentience is derived from the material substrate itself, from energy that is the basis of existence of matter and everything. Software or information in a computer can not be conscious, it's a frozen snapshot of a state of matter.
If the material substrate itself had enough complexity & the right way to organize it then no reason why cannot be sentient – it would be a process and not frozen

Quote:Luminon wrote
Only energy is conscious, because consciousness is a process (a cyclical process!).

What does that even mean, sounds woo woo.
Study physics or you are equivocating energy with consciousness and using the term in a way that is not normally used (at least in physics)

Quote:
Luminon wrote

We, biological brains are conscious only to a limited degree, how much our material substrate permits. However, this limit can be overcome by integrating our brain (and whole nerve and endocrine system) to such a degree that it can contact the "higher self" phenomenon. This extremely powerful phenomenon inspired people to create greatest works of civilization and as such represents the true potential of humanity and each thinker's rightful heritage.
Our minds ore localized & no reason to suggest they are contacting other realms. Vast amounts of research into ESP & Remote viewing fail to replicate results and rely on anecdotal claims that cannot be substantiated when the subject is asked to demonstrate
No need to explain genius or great historical manner in some magical mystical way – some people are better at some skills. Kurt Godel was better at Maths, Beethoven in Music, Galileo in formulating experiments & scientific observations etc. No need for them to get this information from spirits, gods or holy ghosts. There is natural variation in peoples cognitive skills – consider a model like the 7 intelligences of Howard Gardener.
o 1.1 Musical–rhythmic & harmonic
o 1.2 Visual–spatial
o 1.3 Verbal–linguistic
o 1.4 Logical–mathematical
o 1.5 Bodily–kinesthetic
o 1.6 Interpersonal

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 02:35 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 01:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your words are meaningless. "Back to the *beginning* OF WHAT EXACTLY ?
You move nowhere. You say things which have NO MEANING. You have no observations, and no coherent theory. You are completely unable to present anything. You are not at a "pre-scientific" anything. What a GIGANTIC cop-out for bullshit snake-oil salesmen. You are a pathetic fraud. You have NOTHING. You attempt to make something from nothing. You have no education in Neuro-science, obviously. You are whistling in the dark. Go try to sell your fake bullshit somewhere else.
Of course I have something. I have a vast sum of observations of psycho-physiological phenomena and vast theory describing and predicting them. The problem is, this theory is not in the language of western medicine of the 2nd half of the 20th century and onward. There are concepts and phenomena, which have no equivalent in the western medical terms, therefore I can not explain them to you.

So, what you're saying, is:
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(19-01-2014 02:35 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You'd need a considerable patience to learn some theoretical basics and make sense of what I say.

Quid pro quo, man. Howsabout you crack a real physics textbook first? Then we'll talk.
(I mean, I first told you what, like, 6? 8 months ago? that 'dark matter' does not mean what you seem to think it means - and, uh, it still doesn't)

(19-01-2014 02:35 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Biologically Closed Electric Circuits Clinical, Experimental And Theoretical Evidence For An Additional Circulatory System by Bjhorn Nordenstrhom.

http://books.google.cz/books?pg=PR5&lpg=...ts&f=false

http://andrewamarino.com/PDFs/076-JApplNutr1987.pdf

Not legitimate peer-reviewed articles, hmm? I wonder why...

Oh, but remember:
'lol conspiracy' is not an answer

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19-01-2014, 06:06 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 05:30 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I have no idea what is this kind of testing - most likely it is completely unconnected.

Exactly.
You have NO relevant education on the topic, and you are totally incompetent to even begin to discuss it. Thanks for admitting it.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-01-2014, 06:15 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 06:24 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 01:10 PM)War Horse Wrote:  This has got to be a top ten hit list in the dysfunctional thread department.....

Yay! I finally got a top ten thread! Banana_zorro

(19-01-2014 04:26 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  This guy is something else.

Lumi's alright. Somebody's gotta explore the fringe.

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19-01-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 06:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Quid pro quo, man. Howsabout you crack a real physics textbook first? Then we'll talk.
(I mean, I first told you what, like, 6? 8 months ago? that 'dark matter' does not mean what you seem to think it means - and, uh, it still doesn't)
That would be an interesting cultural exchange.
What do you mean, a real physics textbook? I've had 4 years of electrotechnics and high school physics. Do you have any specific book in mind? Because
Anyway, I think you underestimate me, as people tend to underestimate everything they don't understand. You told me that weakly interacting particles use weak nuclear force, that's the only useful information I got from you. I think the problem is not in my lack of physics, but in your inability to listen and suspend judgement until you learn enough of my terminology or language so that it starts making sense. You think that your language and point of view is the only valid one there can be, so you are not motivated to learn anything else. I seek parallels between multiple systems of interpreting reality and it takes its toll on precision - I know that. However that is necessary, because many concepts I work with have no equivalent in today's science, or just imperfect equivalent or there is an equivalent and I don't know what it is, in which case you could be helpful if you knew what I mean.


(19-01-2014 06:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Not legitimate peer-reviewed articles, hmm? I wonder why...
Peer reviewed by whom? If you think these people are quacks, then their peers will be...what? Quacks. So who or what is a peer?


(19-01-2014 05:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  These universals are instantiated within space-time and are part of our universe. It does not make any sense to talk about universals as if they are separate “things” in other realms. This is a fallacy of reification. Interestingly Aristorle corrected this Platonistic notion and in modern terms Bertrand Russells Monism in contrast to Descartes Dualism.
Did I talk of the universals as separate things? I don't think so. However, it takes a conscious effort to grasp the universals intellectually and apply them in daily thinking and reasoning.

(19-01-2014 05:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  We know that morality emerges from evolutionary pressures for cooperation and empathy – we know this from copious amounts of research into our origins and relation to other primates (see frans de waal on this video:
http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_d...orals.html )

Moral laws don’t exist in some other realms but instantiated within societies (imminent if you like). It does not make sense to talk about moral laws independently of sociology & human relations.
This doesn’t mean morality is not objective – there are general rules for what enhances cooperation, empathy, trust and reciprocity.
I don't really talk about other realms - other realms are a scientific problem. I talk about universals which are true in this realm and by necessity also in all other realms.
Yes, this only confirms that there are universal principles, such as economy or systems theory, they are what determines the equity of relationships. Natural principles such as equilibrium, synergy (resonance), action and reaction, etc.

(19-01-2014 05:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  There may be higher levels of integration leading to better cognitive & emotional skills. However this does not cencesserally translate into “higher self” Looks like your system is infused with Elan Vitale & Ghosts essence.
Not necessarily. These may be just various forms of electricity, flow of electric potential in human body, planetary sphere, solar system sphere, galactic sphere, localized interstellar exchanges...

What exactly happens with better brain integration may be manifold - a more contradiction-free personal worldview, a better perception of universals in reality around, or even a more bodily vitality due to easier flow of electric potential in the body and surroundings.
I must argue that a change of thinking or worldview leads to a change of electric pathways - meridians - in the body. This change can mean a localized problem at some meridian, the electric flow will try to shift into another pathway. But if it can't, it may weaken the tissue locally, creating disease, or create a subconscious urge to have the place pierced - if not with scalpel, then with piercing or tattoo needle.
I know this process well, change in thought brings change in energy and health - change in any of these three may bring change to the other two.

(19-01-2014 05:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Increased inflow of reality ? What does that even mean ?
Yes there may be techniques to increase integration of neurons and this would be related to the degree of consciousness eg when we sleep there is a lack of integration as parts of the brain dampen down & brain waves slow down. Meditation can in some cases improve integration, so can having friends, a love life, studying…
In some cases meditation may cause harm by increasing dissociation effects and cause less integration – shutting down some faculties (in a similar way to some dissociative drugs like ketamine).
A conventional brain has many false separate categories for what is right and wrong, normal and not normal. Thus sex in media is seen as obscene and killing as normal. Rudeness and violence in family is common, but we are polite to strangers. It is permissible to beat young children, but not old people. People are seen as different based on their skin color or nation.
None of these are based in reality, these are arbitrary meanings. These may be seen as separate nerve structures in brain. A meditating person is driven to integrate the worldview into a coherent whole, thus he is battling with reconciling the mutually contradictory arbitrary rules that our corrupt culture is full of. An integrated brain perceives reality more directly, and reality is completely logical, coherent with itself, unlike the illusory social world. A meditating person may see parallels between the flow of money in economy and physics of hydraulics, for example.

(19-01-2014 05:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  We can become more conscious by practicing straight forward observation eg when I went to a safari the guide was aware of animal behaviours we wouldn’t notice.
Meditation makes some people less aware & more solipsistic & detached – is some individuals this can even lead to pathology & worsen depression and anti-social behaviour (people who already have dissociative problems)
Yes, meditation may have these dangerous effects. It is dangerous, it upsets the status quo, if done right. A. Newberg describes how a meditating brain is both stimulated, sedated, and somewhat frightened. The dissociation is quite unsettling, but in case of social prejudices it is a good thing. Perhaps high intellect is needed to outweigh too much dissociation.

(19-01-2014 05:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Experience what ? They have an experience – that’s the subjective phenomenal experience.
Inferring it is God is a non-sequitur inference. It might be the devil tricking people, hallucination, mind games from the aliens using a master simulator, delusion or illusion
I didn't mean God as a religious or Christian God, I meant a mystical experience of divinity in broadest sense, such a feeling that it inevitably gets ascribed to something completely superior to reality as we know it. I must refer you to the historical and sociological research of Newberg and J. M. Cohen to see if these experiences are truly the same or comparable all across the age. I saw from their research that they indeed are.

(19-01-2014 05:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Not necessarily – I know people and I myself have had both drug experiences that can be likened to mystical experiences in phenomenological terms. The interpretation of the experience may differ on the culture & setting. (eg my experience in India may be the Rama & In Europe Jesus and for a secular person an inspiring guide and an ancestor for some american Indian.
It does not seem to me that you know what a truly mystical experience is, you probably didn't get that far in pure, drugless meditation. If you only got to some emptiness or darkness, that is not a final stage yet.
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19-01-2014, 08:39 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 02:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I gots me at least one more. Since twinning can occur up to a few weeks after conception, I wanna know where the extra soul is "waiting". (In the Twin Waiting Lounge I s'pose. Duh. Never mind.)

Um well I can answer that.


Since I'm an identical twin and all.



My twin got the fucking soul.






Me, I am doomed to languish, soulless, in the bowels of TTA for all eternity.




Tongue

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19-01-2014, 08:44 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 07:46 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Yes, meditation may have these dangerous effects. It is dangerous, it upsets the status quo, if done right. A. Newberg describes how a meditating brain is both stimulated, sedated, and somewhat frightened. The dissociation is quite unsettling, but in case of social prejudices it is a good thing. Perhaps high intellect is needed to outweigh too much dissociation.


It's dangerous if you do it wrong. Meaning if you are already batshit crazy and you sit there and let your mind run wild.

Done right, one quietens the mental monkey chatter/white noise and gives one a sense of inner equilibrium. It's mental training.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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