What is Spirit?
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20-01-2014, 12:14 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2014 01:15 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 11:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I'll recommend you the same books I always start by recommending: A Brief History of Time and The Universe in A Nutshell by Stephen Hawking and A Cultural History of Physics by Karoli Simonyi.

You have made it clear, in the past, that you do not understand the physics which would by necessity underlie the woo you're talking about. Electromagnetic field theory, of course, being the most obvious, but you do also throw around words like 'dark matter' like they're going out of style...
Thanks for the tips. Yes, physics must by necessity underlie this occult philosophy. I know I lack physics, so I kept with the part of occult philosophy mostly concerned with personal microcosm, psychology, health and stuff. But there is a book on cosmology I want to read some day and for that I need to know scientific view on cosmogenesis first, for comparison. In occult philosophy these things are connected, (with lots of "here be skipped scientific details" warnings), but in science they are not connected. That's why I read it, to look for possible connections. For example, this occult philosophy talks a lot about interplay of basic physical forces and may contain an answer on which natural forces are related to gravity, perhaps even how, which may lead to a gravity field generator. I have my guesses on that from other sources, but I have no way yet to put them into scientific language to see if they even make sense. If they don't make sense, I need to find out why exactly and under which conditions they would make sense.

For the record, I consider the occult philosophy a valid source, because I found that it has a great predictive power for fringe phenomena. This I consider an empirical basis of all my activities. I find it very useful for personal use, which of course means it is not very useful for inter-personal use. But there is an interesting interplay with various sciences from which I draw inspiration. Some people prefer to look at natural scenery for inspiration, that's their thing. My method of inspiration is extremely demanding, but hey, the natural scenery doesn't really work for me. If their inspiration is valid, then mine is too.

(19-01-2014 11:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It is not for other people to magically divine what you have going on in your head. That is not how scientific literature works. It is incumbent on you to explain yourself. Part of doing so is learning, to all necessary detail, the reality behind the concepts whereof you speak so blithely. What you continuously do is say something like "it is like [insert known physical phenomenon X], and it behaves as [insert behaviour utterly incompatible with known physical phenomenon X]".
I wish you studied ethnology and qualitative research techniques. That's just my private selfish wish.
There is a curious social phenomenon, some people can magically divine what's in my head, I call this magic "you know what I mean?" and they say "Yeah, go on." Only it seems it doesn't work through the internet. If someone tells me something and it's not completely familiar, I run all over my memory looking for the nearest match. The problem is, some people don't run all over their memory, they run to the nearest thing, which is "This guy is fucking' nuts." Or in your case, "This guy didn't get my physics stuff exactly right and I've got no reason to nudge him in the right direction, because I've got no fuckin' idea what is the right direction, besides my own direction, which means away from bullshit."

(19-01-2014 11:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It is not my job to explain your ideas; that is your job.

You are not using the scientific terms in "imperfectly equivalent" ways. You use them in incoherent and impossible ways. As soon as you say something like "dark matter" then I am thinking in terms of dark matter. Therefore to speak, as you have repeatedly despite my corrections, of dark matter plasma, is nonsensical.

If you request of me a sculpture depicting a perfect sphere with six vertices then it is not my fault that I cannot produce such a thing.
And let's say this "sphere with six vertices" doesn't ring any bells? Doesn't it give you thoughts like "Hmm, he might mean a "sphere in six dimensional space", I'll describe it to him if that's what he meant..." Because that's how I think. I'm sorry if I presumed that everyone has to think like that.

(19-01-2014 11:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Fatuity is not becoming, you know. And you likewise know perfectly well I meant mainstream academic literature.
But mainstream academic literature is not competent. Mainstream academics could only repeat some experiments, if they get the protocols. Which are everywhere around on the internet, so I don't know why they didn't. I don't know how that works, except as a business offer, or political decision or something non-scientific like that.
I have a strong suspicion that fringe researchers give up on communicating with academic sphere (bad reputation) and they just stay with their network of customers and colleagues, they get their own modest amount of R&D, but they stay away from the academic sphere, which is of course heavily controlled by government funding, military contracts and corporate interests (corporations are of course government-protected groups of people), so there is a set agenda and not all ideas get funded. I think in a free, stateless society the face of science would look much differently. This I say regardless of any scientific validity or non-validity of claims. This is not conspiracy, this is economy and sociology.
In a free society without government-funded mass media the society would quickly find out what works and what doesn't. Why? Because scientists would have to stop relying on funding from tax ransom and they'd have to get hell a lot better at explaining people why they should fund their research voluntarily.



(19-01-2014 11:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And perfectly true to form, you fail to mention even one source or reference. So Woomeister actually is so stupid that he thinks people on an atheist forum are gonna buy that shit with no references. OMF'nG. I have a lot of choices. NONE of them involve giving myself up to your crapola. As usual you MISS the point. A description of an experience does not prove the experience is true. All it proves is they name the same woo consistently, as woo. You really are sad. Please point me to the neurological research, Woomeister.
A qualitative research is not concerned whether the experience is true, just as a historian of national experiences is not concerned if such a thing as a nation empirically exists as some invisible miasma hovering inside state borders. As an experience, everything is true and has real consequences.
Please point out which statements do not seem self-evident to you, so I can provide references.
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20-01-2014, 01:40 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2014 01:45 PM by cjlr.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Thanks for the tips. Yes, physics must by necessity underlie this occult philosophy. I know I lack physics, so I kept with the part of occult philosophy mostly concerned with personal microcosm, psychology, health and stuff. But there is a book on cosmology I want to read some day and for that I need to know scientific view on cosmogenesis first, for comparison. In occult philosophy these things are connected, (with lots of "here be skipped scientific details" warnings), but in science they are not connected. That's why I read it, to look for possible connections. For example, this occult philosophy talks a lot about interplay of basic physical forces and may contain an answer on which natural forces are related to gravity, perhaps even how, which may lead to a gravity field generator. I have my guesses on that from other sources, but I have no way yet to put them into scientific language to see if they even make sense. If they don't make sense, I need to find out why exactly and under which conditions they would make sense.

Yeah. Good luck with that. Read a physics book.

(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  For the record, I consider the occult philosophy a valid source...

Well, there's your problem. Rolleyes

(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  ... because I found that it has a great predictive power for fringe phenomena. I find it very useful for personal use, which of course means it is not very useful for inter-personal use. But there is an interesting interplay with various sciences from which I draw inspiration. Some people prefer to look at natural scenery for inspiration, that's their thing. My method of inspiration is extremely demanding, but hey, the natural scenery doesn't really work for me. If their inspiration is valid, then mine is too.

Sure.

(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I wish you studied ethnology and qualitative research techniques. That's just my private selfish wish.
There is a curious social phenomenon, some people can magically divine what's in my head, I call this magic "you know what I mean?" and they say "Yeah, go on." Only it seems it doesn't work through the internet. If someone tells me something and it's not completely familiar, I run all over my memory looking for the nearest match. The problem is, some people don't run all over their memory, they run to the nearest thing, which is "This guy is fucking' nuts." Or in your case, "This guy didn't get my physics stuff exactly right and I've got no reason to nudge him in the right direction, because I've got no fuckin' idea what is the right direction, besides my own direction, which means away from bullshit."

You don't seem to understand.

Other people who likewise don't know the real meanings of the jargon you violate so wantonly might well think they have some idea as to what you're on about (but again: if you can't establish a reliable common vocabulary you don't know that).

You can't blame other people for not understanding you.

That is a dead-end ass-backwards useless methodology.

(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  And let's say this "sphere with six vertices" doesn't ring any bells? Doesn't it give you thoughts like "Hmm, he might mean a "sphere in six dimensional space"

Ironically this is a good example - your addendum also makes literally no sense whatsoever.

Because a sphere is literally defined by its lacking vertices, one of the words cannot mean what it seems to. Given the context of a three-dimensional sculpture one can have either a sphere or a six-vertex shape; I'd ask if either of those were what was intended. If neither was meant then I would indeed be at a loss. I might then ask follow-up questions.

If no further inquiry produces any better parameters then I might well be forced to conclude my commissioner is talking out of sublime ignorance.

A six-dimensional hypersphere is something I have no problem conceptualising and I could very easily create a sculpture of its three-dimensional projection.

(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  ... I'll describe it to him if that's what he meant..." Because that's how I think. I'm sorry if I presumed that everyone has to think like that.

Since you self-identify as well-placed on the autism spectrum, perhaps you don't appreciate how bizarrely self-absorbed and rude such a statement sounds.

(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  But mainstream academic literature is not competent.

Citation needed, little buddy. Citation fucking needed.

(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Mainstream academics could only repeat some experiments, if they get the protocols. Which are everywhere around on the internet, so I don't know why they didn't. I don't know how that works, except as a business offer, or political decision or something non-scientific like that.

I have a strong suspicion that fringe researchers give up on communicating with academic sphere (bad reputation) and they just stay with their network of customers and colleagues, they get their own modest amount of R&D, but they stay away from the academic sphere, which is of course heavily controlled by government funding, military contracts and corporate interests (corporations are of course government-protected groups of people), so there is a set agenda and not all ideas get funded. I think in a free, stateless society the face of science would look much differently. This I say regardless of any scientific validity or non-validity of claims. This is not conspiracy, this is economy and sociology.

Bullshit.

"The Man controls it all, maaaaan!", eh?

That's what you're going with this?

You don't even seem to have thought that line of thought through. If one actor does not pursue certain ends, then - if those ends are actually existant, a ludicrous presupposition when speaking re: pseudoscience, but one I shall indulge for duration of the thought - it is strictly and obviously advantageous for a rival actor to pursue those ends without competition.

If something works then it works. History lesson: the Soviet Union had a vogue of anti-Imperialist "alternative" scientific methodology for a while; when they figured out that real science got you nuclear bombs instead of famines they changed their tune faster than you can say "wut?".

I remind you once again that throughout the 1960s and 1970s the USA and USSR both blew lots of resources on a veritable cornucopia of crackpot crap. Universal null result.

The only way to ensure literally nobody is pursuing or acknowledging something real and demonstrable is to further suppose that literally everybody is colluding to do so.

If that ain't "lol conspiracy" I don't know what the fuck would be.

(oh, but I guess I forgot - that is actually true. All hail our Glorious Reptiloid Majesty!)

(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  In a free society without government-funded mass media the society would quickly find out what works and what doesn't. Why? Because scientists would have to stop relying on funding from tax ransom and they'd have to get hell a lot better at explaining people why they should fund their research voluntarily.

The reluctance of certain bodies to pursue theoretical research and the tendency to direct funding to ideological ends is obvious. Everybody knows about this.

How you make the insane troll logic leap from "[e.g] it is demonstrable that climate science funding from the Canadian government is determined by the party line of the Prime Minister" to "every single well-regarded editorial board and funding source is colluding to reject so-called pseudoscience even though it's real after all and even despite cases where said bodies are adversarial", I can't possibly imagine.

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20-01-2014, 01:47 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 07:46 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I think the problem is not in my lack of physics, but in your inability to listen and suspend judgement until you learn enough of my terminology or language so that it starts making sense. You think that your language and point of view is the only valid one there can be, so you are not motivated to learn anything else.

Sounds like something ShitBrain would say.

Utter fucking tripe.

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20-01-2014, 02:45 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2014 03:05 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(19-01-2014 05:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Increased inflow of reality ? What does that even mean ?

I think it means dicking with the reticular formation to either allow more shit through or to reprioritize shit or both. It can be quite fun. And quite frightening. But mostly fun. Big Grin

(20-01-2014 12:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  For the record, I consider the occult philosophy a valid source, because I found that it has a great predictive power for fringe phenomena.

And there you have it. The only predictive power it has LuminousOne is to introduce a confirmation bias silly. Kinda like listening to The Celebration of the Lizard predisposes one to realize "I am the Lizard King, I can do anything." under the right circumstances. Tongue




As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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20-01-2014, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2014 03:09 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 01:47 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Sounds like something ShitBrain would say.

Utter fucking tripe.
OK, so let me get this straight. You're clearly not trying to be helpful or constructive. You go around gaining self-esteem from picking on others, whenever you think you can get away with it. And you can get away with it when they show weakness or vulnerability, which is of course any time anyone ever dares to come up with something new or different, which is a sign of freedom. That sucks quite a lot, man.
But the truth is, this is what our parents and teachers were doing do us for decades. People like them picked on Isaac Newton for his alchemy and astrology and if they won, he'd never get through to formulating laws of celestial mechanics. No, he'd be doing paperwork or selling potatoes somewhere.
If we ever do anything creative, we do it from our own free will. Free will is sacred and must be channeled, not destroyed.

(20-01-2014 02:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I think it means dicking with the reticular formation to either allow more shit through or to reprioritize shit or both. It can be quite fun. And quite frightening. But mostly fun. Big Grin
Yes, something like it. Only more areas than that, as far as I can tell.

(20-01-2014 02:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And there you have it. The only predictive power it has LuminousOne is to introduce a confirmation bias silly. Kinda like listening to The Celebration of the Lizard predisposes one to realize "I am the Lizard King, I can do anything." under the right circumstances. Tongue
Occult philosophy is like golf. It's a gentleman's game, you may go alone on the turf, but you have to keep your own score. Only you know if you scored anything, but if you count also misses or unsure hits, then you're a dick. If you're a gentleman, you count only sure hits and don't count anything else. When you return from the game, other gentlemen will congratulate on the score (or perhaps ask how do you count the score) and dicks will say you made it all up. I don't know what a gentleman does next, because I've never played golf. But there is sure so many dicks claiming to play golf that even gentlemen's manners went way down. The longest tournament of golf ever was the Dark Ages.
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20-01-2014, 03:04 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 02:52 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If we ever do anything creative, we do it from our own free will. Free will is sacred and must be channeled, not destroyed.

Free will, like everything else, must be questioned. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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20-01-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 02:52 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(20-01-2014 01:47 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Sounds like something ShitBrain would say.

Utter fucking tripe.
OK, so let me get this straight. You're clearly not trying to be helpful or constructive.

Incorrect. I am calling you on your bullshit. That is quite helpful. One day it may even be helpful to YOU, if you were only to pull your head out of your ass and listen to all the people telling you that you are wallowing in woo.

Quote:You go around gaining self-esteem from picking on others, whenever you think you can get away with it. And you can get away with it when they show weakness or vulnerability, which is of course any time anyone ever dares to come up with something new or different, which is a sign of freedom. That sucks quite a lot, man.

Oh, LOOK -- it wants SOOOO bad to believe the bullshit that it spouts that it thinks it can do amateur psychiatry as well. Nice try, moron. FAIL. I am calling you on the nonsensical, idiot bullshit that you are spouting, simple as that. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cue snake-oil salesman bullshit in 3....2...1...

Quote:But the truth is, this is what our parents and teachers were doing do us for decades. People like them picked on Isaac Newton for his alchemy and astrology and if they won, he'd never get through to formulating laws of celestial mechanics. No, he'd be doing paperwork or selling potatoes somewhere.

Sorry about your mommy issues. Has nothing whatsoever to do with me calling you on your load of bullshit.


Quote:If we ever do anything creative, we do it from our own free will. Free will is sacred and must be channeled, not destroyed.

You really need to work on your little delusion problem.

Quote:Occult philosophy blah blah blah....

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20-01-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 02:52 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Occult philosophy is like golf.

And, like golf, it is nothing more than a good walk spoiled. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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20-01-2014, 05:24 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
'Luminon said '
Quote:
Quote:'Baruch'
These universals are instantiated within space-time and are part of our universe....
Luminon: Did I talk of the universals as separate things? I don't think so. However, it takes a conscious effort to grasp the universals intellectually and apply them in daily thinking and reasoning.

Conscious effort ? Not always. It takes virtually no conscious effort to grasp the law of contradiction. Infact the law of contradiction is grasped from the moment you wake up to when you sleep. People may not go round articulating it and singing
A =/= ¬A & A=A.
The law of contradiction is the beginning and foundation of all universals as is the law of identity. Other conscious primates would also grasp these even if the don't verbally talk about them & discuss them is philosophy class. (Of course one can be confused about these - I have pointed out dozens of fallacies on this very blog which violate the law of contradiction - however they are critically basic to any self aware conscious life. (Non conscious animals would obey these laws but not be aware of them - like a reflex, however it is not unique to humans as per Descartes notion.)

Quote:
(19-01-2014 05:25 PM)Baruch Wrote:  There may be higher levels of integration leading to better cognitive & emotional skills. However this does not necessarily translate into “higher self” Looks like your system is infused with Elan Vitale & Ghosts essence.

Luminon:
Not necessarily.
These may be just various forms of electricity, flow of electric potential in human body, planetary sphere, solar system sphere, galactic sphere, localized interstellar exchanges...
Now your calling the higher self "various forms of electricity, flow of electric potential in human body" you are admitting to using woo woo vague language with no clear definitions. Your the one talking about universal principles but when challenged you end up giving the most vague cliché's & pseudoscience words as if they are so deep and meaningful i.e "higher self" as if it is some entity which is the "real you" set apart.
Cognitive sciences & neurology show that the self emerges from the various components of a brain, body & its environment interrelating & interconnecting - there is no separate "other self"


Quote:'Luminon said '
What exactly happens with better brain integration may be manifold - a more contradiction-free personal worldview, a better perception of universals in reality around, or even a more bodily vitality due to easier flow of electric potential in the body and surroundings.
There are many of ways of doing this. Go exercise and you will get extra body vitality.

Quote:'Luminon said '
I must argue that a change of thinking or worldview leads to a change of electric pathways - meridians - in the body.
There is no evidence for any meridians.
Again your using buzz words you picked up. This is just your version of substantiating of the random - words without reference, cannot be verified, have vague meanings that can be transposed onto other meanings, equivocation etc.
If your an expert studying universals your really not doing a good job at it.
Everytime we think, do or feel electrical pathways change. So its a vague buzzword to say "do x and the electiric pathways will change"
True meditation does alter electrical pathways, as does drugs, dreaming and even farting. (it really does ! those olfactory systems)


Quote:'Luminon said
This change can mean a localized problem at some meridian, the electric flow will try to shift into another pathway. But if it can't, it may weaken the tissue locally, creating disease, or create a subconscious urge to have the place pierced - if not with scalpel, then with piercing or tattoo needle.

What ?
You really need to study biology, neuroscience, pathology & cognitive psychology.
Where did you get this from ? Please identify your source because meditation is not making you think in a clear, logical, coherent manner.

Quote:'Luminon said
I know this process well,
mmmm

Quote:'Luminon said
change in thought brings change in energy and health - change in any of these three may bring change to the other two.
Well in a very vague or general sense this is true. If someone changes their thoughts and decides not to smoke they will usually become more healthy. If someone changes their thoughts and decides to jump onto an oncoming train their will be a distinct lack of energy in their body soon after.

Quote:'Luminon said
A conventional brain has many false separate categories for what is right and wrong, normal and not normal.
...your brain assumes conventional brains are wrong and unconventional brains are right in separate categories ? Does that make your brain conventional or not ?
A brains a brain - yes there is variation.

Quote:b]'Luminon said [/b]
Thus sex in media is seen as obscene and killing as normal. Rudeness and violence in family is common, but we are polite to strangers. It is permissible to beat young children, but not old people. People are seen as different based on their skin color or nation.
Eh...you might be watching too much crime channel.
You are making sweeping generalizations here. Permissible to beat young children ? WTF ? I seriously don't know what society your talking about but round here in the UK it isn't the norm to beat young children and considered child abuse.
Yes there is still some racism, but again sweeping generalizations.

Quote:'Luminon said
None of these are based in reality, these are arbitrary meanings.
Racism ? Beating children ? Different Perceptions of sex ?
ARBITARY ?

WHAT ?

Racism is not arbitrary ? There are coherent, logical, well reasoned explanations for racism or different attitudes in different societies based on evolutionary pressures, socio-psychological factors, historical & cultural context, political and ecological reasons. whether right or wrong these are not "arbitrary factors" They are not "random" , "arbitrary" or "illusionary." (for example kin selection and general tendency that cooperation of the "in group" and distrust & competition with the "out group" will lead to flourishing and survival of the species. There are mathematical models which support this and it is far from arbitrary. True we can change these patterns from the context of a hunter gatherer society to a modern multicultural city - in some cases we are firing of hunter gatherer defence systems which are inappropriate for the modern world.

'Luminon said
Quote:These may be seen as separate nerve structures in brain.
Study some neuroscience
"Racism" is a separate nerve structure in the brain ?
"beating" your children is a separate nerve structure in the brain ?

You might be meaning something extremely obvious eg musical perception does have its unique neural patterns as will racist attitudes (lets say as a hypothesis the amygdala becomes overactive inducing fear response when a white supremacist sees a big black Nigerian...this leads to a cascade in numerous other areas...and eventual neurological output is burning effigies of black people (or burning the people ! )

Quote:'Luminon said
A meditating person is driven to integrate the worldview into a coherent whole, thus he is battling with reconciling the mutually contradictory arbitrary rules that our corrupt culture is full of.
Not necessarily. Meditating can also do the opposite and produce arrogant people who think they know more and more spiritual in harmony with the Tao whilst those lesser people into porn are just simulated robots who lack souls. (well, thank kind of true...Censored
My point is that study of rational thought & science can reconcile & integrate knowledge of the world.
I've met people who have meditated for years & are really quite ignorant. (yes, I've also met wise people who meditate and I have practiced meditations myself)
Study of politics, sociology, economics can reconcile & integrate cultural rules to bring harmony.
Corrupt cultures don't have "arbitrary rules" - they have rules which are just consistent for creating hate, fear and destruction to many. Corruption is NOT arbitrary, we can study rules which don't work - eg the corruption in North Korea is not arbitrary but a bad way to run a society keeping it from flourishing - I don't need to meditate to work this out - some rational deliberation & empirical observation is required

Quote:'Luminon said
An integrated brain perceives reality more directly, and reality is completely logical, coherent with itself, unlike the illusory social world. A meditating person may see parallels between the flow of money in economy and physics of hydraulics, for example.
The social world is not illusionary. It is a logical, coherent & reasonable outcome when we have large numbers of people. People cooperate & form tribes as the extended family grows larger - these are all necessary for distribution of labour and economic & political systems to emerge. Its logical. There of course are better & worse ways of doing this from a flourishing harmonious society to a decaying society (N.Korea, Somalia...) These are not illusions - Somalia just has a dysfunctional system.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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20-01-2014, 05:53 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
Quote:'Baruch' We can become more conscious by practicing straight forward observation eg when I went to a safari the guide was aware of animal behaviours we wouldn’t notice.
Meditation makes some people less aware & more solipsistic & detached – is some individuals this can even lead to pathology & worsen depression and anti-social behaviour (people who already have dissociative problems)
Luminon says:
Yes, meditation may have these dangerous effects. It is dangerous, it upsets the status quo, if done right. [/quote]
I'm not against meditation, I have practiced it and not denying it cannot have benefits - there is some published work on the benefits.
However my point is that it does not replace good science & philosophy and good science & philosophy does not necessarily require meditation. For some people meditation has little benefit, for others they need to go for a jog, others need some math in the morning, some need a strong coffee. All of these can have their pro and cons. A person can become too dissociated & solipsistic from meditations and become an antisocial sociopath, a person can become hyper addicted to exercise and cause physical injury, a person can become dependent of caffeine and cause restlessness & distractions. None of these should be over rated. I also know this from personal experience, sometimes I am more integrated after some exercise, think clearer after a coffee and feel euphoric after a meditation break.
Your treating meditation as if it is the answer to everything. It may help some people, there are some therapeutic uses, it may lead to some better integration. However I have personally seen integration and progress in some individuals with cognitive behavioural therapy, some with medication, some with meditation, some with making and contribute to a community or a job. It may well be someone needs a job to integrate their personality & not sit alone for hours in a quiet room !!!

Luminon says:
Quote:A. Newberg describes how a meditating brain is both stimulated, sedated, and somewhat frightened. The dissociation is quite unsettling, but in case of social prejudices it is a good thing. Perhaps high intellect is needed to outweigh too much dissociation.
On the contrary "high intellect" is dissociative. Some emotionally charged activities are required like a loving relationship, family, exercise, a sport or some hobbies.
Richard Feyman or David Hume are interesting example of these - extremely high intellect but quite social and dynamic personalities when not over intellectualizing.
A balance is required. Too much meditation, like you say can be harmful and lead to DISINTEGRATION.

Quote:
Quote:Baruch
have an experiences of God.... – that’s the subjective phenomenal experience.
Inferring it is God is a non-sequitur inference. It might be the devil tricking people, hallucination, mind games from the aliens using a master simulator, delusion or illusion
Luminon says:
I didn't mean God as a religious or Christian God, I meant a mystical experience of divinity in broadest sense, such a feeling that it inevitably gets ascribed to something completely superior to reality as we know it.
"The something superior to reality" is still a subjective feeling and that feeling is part of reality. How they interpret their feelings may infer other parts of reality or be illusions but "superior to reality" - what does that mean ?
Lets say a person does feel awe & wonder. From this they infer there is something deeper "connecting the dots" of their experience. From this they may infer there are mathematical patterns that connect the dots as a deeper explanation and work to integrate those patterns into a theory.


Luminon says:
Quote:I must refer you to the historical and sociological research of Newberg and J. M. Cohen to see if these experiences are truly the same or comparable all across the age. I saw from their research that they indeed are.[/b]
Like I previously said - if I did cross cultural references asking catholics, calvanists, Jehova witness they may share experiences of Jesus - doesn't mean Jesus exists.
No one is denying people have experiences. However they may be inferring agency or causes for their experiences which are not reliable explanations.

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A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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