What is Spirit?
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20-01-2014, 05:55 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 05:53 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:'Baruch' We can become more conscious by practicing straight forward observation eg when I went to a safari the guide was aware of animal behaviours we wouldn’t notice.
Meditation makes some people less aware & more solipsistic & detached – is some individuals this can even lead to pathology & worsen depression and anti-social behaviour (people who already have dissociative problems)
Luminon says:
Yes, meditation may have these dangerous effects. It is dangerous, it upsets the status quo, if done right.
I'm not against meditation, I have practiced it and not denying it cannot have benefits - there is some published work on the benefits.
However my point is that it does not replace good science & philosophy and good science & philosophy does not necessarily require meditation. For some people meditation has little benefit, for others they need to go for a jog, others need some math in the morning, some need a strong coffee. All of these can have their pro and cons. A person can become too dissociated & solipsistic from meditations and become an antisocial sociopath, a person can become hyper addicted to exercise and cause physical injury, a person can become dependent of caffeine and cause restlessness & distractions. None of these should be over rated. I also know this from personal experience, sometimes I am more integrated after some exercise, think clearer after a coffee and feel euphoric after a meditation break.
Your treating meditation as if it is the answer to everything. It may help some people, there are some therapeutic uses, it may lead to some better integration. However I have personally seen integration and progress in some individuals with cognitive behavioural therapy, some with medication, some with meditation, some with making and contribute to a community or a job. It may well be someone needs a job to integrate their personality & not sit alone for hours in a quiet room !!!

Luminon says:
Quote:A. Newberg describes how a meditating brain is both stimulated, sedated, and somewhat frightened. The dissociation is quite unsettling, but in case of social prejudices it is a good thing. Perhaps high intellect is needed to outweigh too much dissociation.
On the contrary "high intellect" is dissociative. Some emotionally charged activities are required like a loving relationship, family, exercise, a sport or some hobbies.
Richard Feyman or David Hume are interesting example of these - extremely high intellect but quite social and dynamic personalities when not over intellectualizing.
A balance is required. Too much meditation, like you say can be harmful and lead to DISINTEGRATION.

Quote:Luminon says:
I didn't mean God as a religious or Christian God, I meant a mystical experience of divinity in broadest sense, such a feeling that it inevitably gets ascribed to something completely superior to reality as we know it.
"The something superior to reality" is still a subjective feeling and that feeling is part of reality. How they interpret their feelings may infer other parts of reality or be illusions but "superior to reality" - what does that mean ?
Lets say a person does feel awe & wonder. From this they infer there is something deeper "connecting the dots" of their experience. From this they may infer there are mathematical patterns that connect the dots as a deeper explanation and work to integrate those patterns into a theory.


Luminon says:
Quote:I must refer you to the historical and sociological research of Newberg and J. M. Cohen to see if these experiences are truly the same or comparable all across the age. I saw from their research that they indeed are.[/b]
Like I previously said - if I did cross cultural references asking catholics, calvanists, Jehova witness they may share experiences of Jesus - doesn't mean Jesus exists.
No one is denying people have experiences. However they may be inferring agency or causes for their experiences which are not reliable explanations.

[
[/quote]



So sucks when the quote function screws with your post huh?

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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20-01-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
For a thread she supposedly bowed out of, someone sure has a lot of neck. Tongue

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20-01-2014, 07:05 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2014 07:29 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 05:55 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Your treating meditation as if it is the answer to everything. It may help some people, there are some therapeutic uses, it may lead to some better integration. However I have personally seen integration and progress in some individuals with cognitive behavioural therapy, some with medication, some with meditation, some with making and contribute to a community or a job. It may well be someone needs a job to integrate their personality & not sit alone for hours in a quiet room !!!
I'm treating meditation from the point of view of the occult philosophy I study. It recognizes many kinds of meditation as for personal disposition, but it is important for personal development. The other important thing is to use whatever we gained from meditation in activity of some kind, if possible, creative or altruistic activity. Meditation alone would likely cause some neurosis.

I use my insight from meditation to write school stuff and forum stuff and to correct the wrong things about my life. I also use it to get high. I searched inwards and found some terrible things in there - but the deeper I searched, I found some magnificent things there, experiences for which I can't take credit, experiences which I did nothing to earn, experiences greater than my little self. I went away from Pavlov, skipped Freud and went straight to Jung.

(20-01-2014 05:55 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  On the contrary "high intellect" is dissociative. Some emotionally charged activities are required like a loving relationship, family, exercise, a sport or some hobbies.
Richard Feyman or David Hume are interesting example of these - extremely high intellect but quite social and dynamic personalities when not over intellectualizing.
A balance is required. Too much meditation, like you say can be harmful and lead to DISINTEGRATION.
Right. So how do you call it when people see the whole world as one completely associated system, all is love, and completely lose discriminating faculties? I thought that is something like dissociation, or maybe opposite of it? I don't know how it's called, but I wish those people a dose of intellect.

(20-01-2014 05:55 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
Quote:Luminon says:
I didn't mean God as a religious or Christian God, I meant a mystical experience of divinity in broadest sense, such a feeling that it inevitably gets ascribed to something completely superior to reality as we know it.
"The something superior to reality" is still a subjective feeling and that feeling is part of reality. How they interpret their feelings may infer other parts of reality or be illusions but "superior to reality" - what does that mean ?
Lets say a person does feel awe & wonder. From this they infer there is something deeper "connecting the dots" of their experience. From this they may infer there are mathematical patterns that connect the dots as a deeper explanation and work to integrate those patterns into a theory.
I didn't say "superior to reality", I said "superior to reality as we know it", which is not synonymous with the actual reality. The areas of reality we can access are dependent on our consciousness. Expanding consciousness in meditation can contact some reality previously unknown, a way to see the world without the usual interpretations, for example.
However, here I referred to an inner experience of deep bliss and exaltation, because I know it intimately. Not so much wonder I could express in reasonable words except at how high I am while still technically passing as sober and still capable to write on the forum Big Grin

(20-01-2014 05:55 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Like I previously said - if I did cross cultural references asking catholics, calvanists, Jehova witness they may share experiences of Jesus - doesn't mean Jesus exists.
No one is denying people have experiences. However they may be inferring agency or causes for their experiences which are not reliable explanations.
You're barking up a wrong tree here, I don't say Jesus exists. I say there is a phenomenon of feeling bliss and exaltation that gets very reliably ascribed to Jesus or God. Jesus has such a cultural propaganda, that he has almost a monopoly on this experience. People go around their business and this experience happens to them and 9 times out of 10 they jump on the bandwagon of the nearest religion, which usually happens to be Christianity.

I hang out with atheists for years, so I didn't jump on the bandwagon, but I can easily imagine that anyone else would. I've heard of professors who were rigid atheists and they just broke and went crazy for faith. The experience was so strong, that they swallowed it all with religious dogma, hook, line and sinker. They could find no middle ground between strong atheism and strong theism, they went from one extreme to another.
OTOH, I'm the middle ground guy, the professional fence-sitter. I was prepared.
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21-01-2014, 07:45 AM
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 03:24 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Incorrect. I am calling you on your bullshit. That is quite helpful. One day it may even be helpful to YOU, if you were only to pull your head out of your ass and listen to all the people telling you that you are wallowing in woo.
Over the years, I've pulled my head out of so many asses that I look like Barrack Obama, brown face and ears sticking out. And I tell you, bullying never made it easier. People can't be bullied into rationality.
Rationality? Been there, done that, still doing it when needed. Just one more skill in my toolbox. If I had all the skills that people want from me, I'd be a fuckin' superman.

(20-01-2014 03:24 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, LOOK -- it wants SOOOO bad to believe the bullshit that it spouts that it thinks it can do amateur psychiatry as well. Nice try, moron. FAIL. I am calling you on the nonsensical, idiot bullshit that you are spouting, simple as that. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sorry about your mommy issues. Has nothing whatsoever to do with me calling you on your load of bullshit.
If you think this approach gets you anywhere with anyone ever, then you're the delusional one. That's not rationality, that's conformity bullying, same thing as churches do.
As for mommy issues, that is a serious thing. Mothers can be our personal Old Testament home Yahwehs. You see how many people have a problem with imaginary Yahweh, so real ones can be even worse.

(20-01-2014 01:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yeah. Good luck with that. Read a physics book.
Is there someone willing to do a cultural exchange - me reading a physics textbook, (s)he reading a woo textbook? I consider curiosity one of great human virtues. Is there anyone virtuous?

(20-01-2014 01:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  You don't seem to understand.

Other people who likewise don't know the real meanings of the jargon you violate so wantonly might well think they have some idea as to what you're on about (but again: if you can't establish a reliable common vocabulary you don't know that).
You can't blame other people for not understanding you.
That is a dead-end ass-backwards useless methodology.
It works with most people I know. And those it doesn't work with, I don't know which parts of vocabulary are or aren't in common. And then there's people who don't realize we have a different vocabulary case here and they call me irrational. And then there are people like me, who know two vocabularies, but can't well translate between them.
At least you know how I feel when I talk with free market capitalists. Drinking Beverage

(20-01-2014 01:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Ironically this is a good example - your addendum also makes literally no sense whatsoever.

Because a sphere is literally defined by its lacking vertices, one of the words cannot mean what it seems to. Given the context of a three-dimensional sculpture one can have either a sphere or a six-vertex shape; I'd ask if either of those were what was intended. If neither was meant then I would indeed be at a loss. I might then ask follow-up questions.

If no further inquiry produces any better parameters then I might well be forced to conclude my commissioner is talking out of sublime ignorance.

A six-dimensional hypersphere is something I have no problem conceptualising and I could very easily create a sculpture of its three-dimensional projection.
Wonderful! That's the constructive action I'd like to see from you, only more directly, with less complaints about nonsense and ignorance. Think of it as a first contact scenario with alien species. If that makes you feel better, think alien species on a very, very primitive planet Tongue

(20-01-2014 01:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Since you self-identify as well-placed on the autism spectrum, perhaps you don't appreciate how bizarrely self-absorbed and rude such a statement sounds.
Strange. I thought there was only a mild overtone of rudeness. I don't get many of these conversations in real life, so I lack practice.

(20-01-2014 01:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Citation needed, little buddy. Citation fucking needed.
No need, just logic. If mainstream academic literature was competent, we wouldn't have this conversation.

(20-01-2014 01:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Bullshit.

"The Man controls it all, maaaaan!", eh?

That's what you're going with this?

You don't even seem to have thought that line of thought through. If one actor does not pursue certain ends, then - if those ends are actually existant, a ludicrous presupposition when speaking re: pseudoscience, but one I shall indulge for duration of the thought - it is strictly and obviously advantageous for a rival actor to pursue those ends without competition.

If something works then it works. History lesson: the Soviet Union had a vogue of anti-Imperialist "alternative" scientific methodology for a while; when they figured out that real science got you nuclear bombs instead of famines they changed their tune faster than you can say "wut?".

I remind you once again that throughout the 1960s and 1970s the USA and USSR both blew lots of resources on a veritable cornucopia of crackpot crap. Universal null result.

The only way to ensure literally nobody is pursuing or acknowledging something real and demonstrable is to further suppose that literally everybody is colluding to do so.

If that ain't "lol conspiracy" I don't know what the fuck would be.

(oh, but I guess I forgot - that is actually true. All hail our Glorious Reptiloid Majesty!)
I understand things that I have actually studied. I haven't studied the R&D. USA and Russia did a government funding research. That's as if I mugged people on the street with a gun, took their money and paid some biology students (my neighbors) to do some tests on their university equipment. So it's not really a scientific question, it's a question of bureaucracy, institutions, business and policy. I have no freakin' idea how is research organized, any more than I know how a hospital is managed.
Maybe next time the biology and chemistry students will have party on the dorm corridor at night, I should buy a bottle of something and join them. Have a few drinks, ask some questions. It's going to be weird as hell, but they're probably going to be kinder than you. Sorry I can't send you a bottle, I think you deserve it for all your patience with me.

(20-01-2014 01:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The reluctance of certain bodies to pursue theoretical research and the tendency to direct funding to ideological ends is obvious. Everybody knows about this.

How you make the insane troll logic leap from "[e.g] it is demonstrable that climate science funding from the Canadian government is determined by the party line of the Prime Minister" to "every single well-regarded editorial board and funding source is colluding to reject so-called pseudoscience even though it's real after all and even despite cases where said bodies are adversarial", I can't possibly imagine.
I have no idea whatsoever how these editorial boards work, how they think and what kinds of submissions they get or don't get. And I have no idea how to find that out. In my country there is a "skeptic club" of former Communists who infiltrate government and media boards to promote genetic engineering and nuclear energy and harass the practitioners of preventive medicine.
I think I'll take my chances with drunken students.
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21-01-2014, 08:53 AM
RE: What is Spirit?
(21-01-2014 07:45 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(20-01-2014 03:24 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Incorrect. I am calling you on your bullshit. That is quite helpful. One day it may even be helpful to YOU, if you were only to pull your head out of your ass and listen to all the people telling you that you are wallowing in woo.
Over the years, I've pulled my head out of so many asses that I look like Barrack Obama, brown face and ears sticking out.


[Image: sw50sw8sw578.gif]

Quote: And I tell you, bullying never made it easier. People can't be bullied into rationality.


“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.”

― Thomas Jefferson


Bullying? Get a grip. You can shove your little pity party up your ass alongside your head.


Quote:Rationality? Been there, done that,

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever seen anyone say on the internet. But quite revealing.


Quote: still doing it when needed.

No, you're not. Not at all.


Quote: Just one more skill in my toolbox.

You don't have any tools in your "toolbox" at all.

Quote: If I had all the skills that people want from me, I'd be a fuckin' superman.

Oh, look, and it's a megalomaniac as well.

Quote:
(20-01-2014 03:24 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, LOOK -- it wants SOOOO bad to believe the bullshit that it spouts that it thinks it can do amateur psychiatry as well. Nice try, moron. FAIL. I am calling you on the nonsensical, idiot bullshit that you are spouting, simple as that. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sorry about your mommy issues. Has nothing whatsoever to do with me calling you on your load of bullshit.
If you think this approach gets you anywhere with anyone ever, then you're the delusional one.

I don't think this approach is going to change your bullshit behavior at all. But I'm still going to call you on it. Deal with it, punk.


Quote: That's not rationality, that's conformity bullying, same thing as churches do.

Wishful thinking on your part. As above, it is ridiculing your batshit crazy tripe.


Quote:As for mommy issues, that is a serious thing. Mothers can be our personal Old Testament home Yahwehs. You see how many people have a problem with imaginary Yahweh, so real ones can be even worse.

Get. Help. Moron.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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21-01-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 07:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(20-01-2014 05:55 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Your treating meditation as if it is the answer to everything. It may help some people, there are some therapeutic uses, it may lead to some better integration. However I have personally seen integration and progress in some individuals with cognitive behavioural therapy, some with medication, some with meditation, some with making and contribute to a community or a job. It may well be someone needs a job to integrate their personality & not sit alone for hours in a quiet room !!!
I'm treating meditation from the point of view of the occult philosophy I study. It recognizes many kinds of meditation as for personal disposition, but it is important for personal development. The other important thing is to use whatever we gained from meditation in activity of some kind, if possible, creative or altruistic activity. Meditation alone would likely cause some neurosis.

I use my insight from meditation to write school stuff and forum stuff and to correct the wrong things about my life. I also use it to get high. I searched inwards and found some terrible things in there - but the deeper I searched, I found some magnificent things there, experiences for which I can't take credit, experiences which I did nothing to earn, experiences greater than my little self. I went away from Pavlov, skipped Freud and went straight to Jung.

(20-01-2014 05:55 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  On the contrary "high intellect" is dissociative. Some emotionally charged activities are required like a loving relationship, family, exercise, a sport or some hobbies.
Richard Feyman or David Hume are interesting example of these - extremely high intellect but quite social and dynamic personalities when not over intellectualizing.
A balance is required. Too much meditation, like you say can be harmful and lead to DISINTEGRATION.
Right. So how do you call it when people see the whole world as one completely associated system, all is love, and completely lose discriminating faculties? I thought that is something like dissociation, or maybe opposite of it? I don't know how it's called, but I wish those people a dose of intellect.

(20-01-2014 05:55 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  "The something superior to reality" is still a subjective feeling and that feeling is part of reality. How they interpret their feelings may infer other parts of reality or be illusions but "superior to reality" - what does that mean ?
Lets say a person does feel awe & wonder. From this they infer there is something deeper "connecting the dots" of their experience. From this they may infer there are mathematical patterns that connect the dots as a deeper explanation and work to integrate those patterns into a theory.
I didn't say "superior to reality", I said "superior to reality as we know it", which is not synonymous with the actual reality. The areas of reality we can access are dependent on our consciousness. Expanding consciousness in meditation can contact some reality previously unknown, a way to see the world without the usual interpretations, for example.
However, here I referred to an inner experience of deep bliss and exaltation, because I know it intimately. Not so much wonder I could express in reasonable words except at how high I am while still technically passing as sober and still capable to write on the forum Big Grin

(20-01-2014 05:55 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Like I previously said - if I did cross cultural references asking catholics, calvanists, Jehova witness they may share experiences of Jesus - doesn't mean Jesus exists.
No one is denying people have experiences. However they may be inferring agency or causes for their experiences which are not reliable explanations.
You're barking up a wrong tree here, I don't say Jesus exists. I say there is a phenomenon of feeling bliss and exaltation that gets very reliably ascribed to Jesus or God. Jesus has such a cultural propaganda, that he has almost a monopoly on this experience. People go around their business and this experience happens to them and 9 times out of 10 they jump on the bandwagon of the nearest religion, which usually happens to be Christianity.

I hang out with atheists for years, so I didn't jump on the bandwagon, but I can easily imagine that anyone else would. I've heard of professors who were rigid atheists and they just broke and went crazy for faith. The experience was so strong, that they swallowed it all with religious dogma, hook, line and sinker. They could find no middle ground between strong atheism and strong theism, they went from one extreme to another.
OTOH, I'm the middle ground guy, the professional fence-sitter. I was prepared.



Um - that's not my post you're answering.Blink
All I wrote was at the bottom mentioning the quote function wasn't working for you.

You appear to be responding to me - but this was not my post.Shocking

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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21-01-2014, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2014 09:24 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 07:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I use my insight from meditation........to get high.

Hobo



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21-01-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: What is Spirit?
(20-01-2014 03:24 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Incorrect. I am calling you on your bullshit. That is quite helpful. One day it may even be helpful to YOU, if you were only to pull your head out of your ass and listen to all the people telling you that you are wallowing in woo.
I've pulled my head out of so many asses that my face looks like Barrack Obama.* (all brown and ears flipped out) And I tell you, bullying never made it easier. People can't be bullied into rationality.

I use my rationality as I choose, that's because I'm dealing with complicated stuff and no matter how rational I am within the context, it is never going to look like your garden variety rationality. I get what you mean, I wrote my bachelor's thesis about American atheism, but the rest of my stuff is special circumstances.

(* To offended parties, I'm sorry but I could not pass the opportunity to make a joke about a global dictator of a military empire with 900+ bases worldwide, including the still running Guantanamo bay camp)

(20-01-2014 03:24 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, LOOK -- it wants SOOOO bad to believe the bullshit that it spouts that it thinks it can do amateur psychiatry as well. Nice try, moron. FAIL. I am calling you on the nonsensical, idiot bullshit that you are spouting, simple as that. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sorry about your mommy issues. Has nothing whatsoever to do with me calling you on your load of bullshit.
If you think this approach gets you anywhere with anyone ever, then you're the delusional one. That's not rationality, that's conformity bullying, same thing as churches do.
As for mommy issues, that is a serious thing. Mothers can be our personal Old Testament home Yahwehs. You see how many people have a problem with imaginary Yahweh, so real ones can be even worse.

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Conscious effort ? Not always. It takes virtually no conscious effort to grasp the law of contradiction. Infact the law of contradiction is grasped from the moment you wake up to when you sleep. People may not go round articulating it and singing
A =/= ¬A & A=A.
The law of contradiction is the beginning and foundation of all universals as is the law of identity. Other conscious primates would also grasp these even if the don't verbally talk about them & discuss them is philosophy class. (Of course one can be confused about these - I have pointed out dozens of fallacies on this very blog which violate the law of contradiction - however they are critically basic to any self aware conscious life. (Non conscious animals would obey these laws but not be aware of them - like a reflex, however it is not unique to humans as per Descartes notion.)
I wish it was so simple, next time I meet a monotheist who believes in the Holy Trinity. Or someone who says violence is wrong but votes for people who increase taxes. People contradict themselves all the time.

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Now your calling the higher self "various forms of electricity, flow of electric potential in human body" you are admitting to using woo woo vague language with no clear definitions. Your the one talking about universal principles but when challenged you end up giving the most vague cliché's & pseudoscience words as if they are so deep and meaningful i.e "higher self" as if it is some entity which is the "real you" set apart.
Cognitive sciences & neurology show that the self emerges from the various components of a brain, body & its environment interrelating & interconnecting - there is no separate "other self"
It's a bit more complicated. The "higher self" is a colloquial name for a very strange phenomenon. There's a book about such cases by J. M. Cohen. It feels like... there is a god, or that I am with god, or that me and god are one, something like that.
If I were an atheist who didn't know that book, I'd be all over it with curiosity. It is a social, historical and surely also a neurological phenomenon. It perhaps is at the root of the major religions. The problem is, there is precious little scientific literature about it. If I want to study the phenomenon, I have to reach for the occult literature, which of course writes about it as if it was an objective entity or something. It also feels like that, so this can be expected. And I can't just go and say they made it all up and it can't possibly be an objective entity, because that would be getting ahead of myself. I have to think of everything, let's say, under what hypothetical circumstances this could be an objective entity? Any bloke can think of why it couldn't. Why it could, that's the real challenge. To think how things are possible, not how they are impossible.

Admitting to using woo woo language? Give me a break, is that skeptical inquisition or something? I study the occult philosophy, which has a technical jargon with rules and deep meanings. There are freakin' exercises in every chapter if you can find out hidden meanings behind each of these concepts. It's not my fault it's an older literature and that meanwhile hippies stole out half the concepts and made mumbo jumbo out of them.

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  There are many of ways of doing this. Go exercise and you will get extra body vitality.
I can do both. But this urge to meditate and to seek out strange occult treatises in foreign language (English), it's not normal, is it?

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  There is no evidence for any meridians.
Again your using buzz words you picked up. This is just your version of substantiating of the random - words without reference, cannot be verified, have vague meanings that can be transposed onto other meanings, equivocation etc.
If your an expert studying universals your really not doing a good job at it.
Everytime we think, do or feel electrical pathways change. So its a vague buzzword to say "do x and the electiric pathways will change"
True meditation does alter electrical pathways, as does drugs, dreaming and even farting. (it really does ! those olfactory systems)
I'm not substantiating at random, that's an intellectual insult. I'd have a series of books for you to read so that you understand where these concepts came from. Mostly from Hindu philosophy, but I'm not going to throw around concepts like prana, atma, buddhi, manas, chitta, mannvatara, prakriti and so on, I'm not such a dick. If I really wanted you not to understand, I'd talk the goddamn Sanskrit technical terms and not their westernized equivalents.

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  What ?
You really need to study biology, neuroscience, pathology & cognitive psychology.
Where did you get this from ? Please identify your source because meditation is not making you think in a clear, logical, coherent manner.
I don't think I need to study four new sciences, I just need to meet four more people who know what a constructive approach to question means. Have you ever heard of this thing, it's called division of labor.
This link. Just this link. Will you PLEASE click it?

Just something based on Dr. Nordenström research of electric properties of tissue. Nothing controversial. I have posted Nordenström book of EVIDENCE (incl. photographs) earlier.

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Eh...you might be watching too much crime channel.
You are making sweeping generalizations here. Permissible to beat young children ? WTF ? I seriously don't know what society your talking about but round here in the UK it isn't the norm to beat young children and considered child abuse.
Yes there is still some racism, but again sweeping generalizations.
Ah, I thought the community here is mostly American, midwest. And central European.

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Racism ? Beating children ? Different Perceptions of sex ?
ARBITARY ?

WHAT ?

Racism is not arbitrary ? There are coherent, logical, well reasoned explanations for racism or different attitudes in different societies based on evolutionary pressures, socio-psychological factors, historical & cultural context, political and ecological reasons. whether right or wrong these are not "arbitrary factors" They are not "random" , "arbitrary" or "illusionary." (for example kin selection and general tendency that cooperation of the "in group" and distrust & competition with the "out group" will lead to flourishing and survival of the species. There are mathematical models which support this and it is far from arbitrary. True we can change these patterns from the context of a hunter gatherer society to a modern multicultural city - in some cases we are firing of hunter gatherer defence systems which are inappropriate for the modern world.

Whatever, dude. You're certainly right. Maybe I meant arbitrary from the point of view of reason and universal ethical principles, but now it's too late to explain.

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Study some neuroscience
"Racism" is a separate nerve structure in the brain ?
"beating" your children is a separate nerve structure in the brain ?

You might be meaning something extremely obvious eg musical perception does have its unique neural patterns as will racist attitudes (lets say as a hypothesis the amygdala becomes overactive inducing fear response when a white supremacist sees a big black Nigerian...this leads to a cascade in numerous other areas...and eventual neurological output is burning effigies of black people (or burning the people ! )
May be. Although, some memories can be traced down to a single neuron. And this neuron's connections will decide how many connection to other neurons it has. A neuron can have up to 10,000 synapses. So methinks that a neuron or a group of neurons with fewer but strong synapses to other areas which are not otherwise connected might cause a dogmatic thinking. Because there is a strong central idea about which the person is able to think only from very few points of view, just one or two.

OTOH, as vague and seemingly crazy as I am, I can think about many things from very many points of view, that's why I'm not dogmatic about things. I can always imagine realistically what if things were different.

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Not necessarily. Meditating can also do the opposite and produce arrogant people who think they know more and more spiritual in harmony with the Tao whilst those lesser people into porn are just simulated robots who lack souls. (well, thank kind of true...Censored
My point is that study of rational thought & science can reconcile & integrate knowledge of the world.
I've met people who have meditated for years & are really quite ignorant. (yes, I've also met wise people who meditate and I have practiced meditations myself)
Study of politics, sociology, economics can reconcile & integrate cultural rules to bring harmony.
Corrupt cultures don't have "arbitrary rules" - they have rules which are just consistent for creating hate, fear and destruction to many. Corruption is NOT arbitrary, we can study rules which don't work - eg the corruption in North Korea is not arbitrary but a bad way to run a society keeping it from flourishing - I don't need to meditate to work this out - some rational deliberation & empirical observation is required
Sure dude, that's a reasonable talk. If so, why did you accuse me of substantiating the random? Is that a better option, is the only other scenario being corrupt and having a hidden agenda?

(20-01-2014 05:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  The social world is not illusionary. It is a logical, coherent & reasonable outcome when we have large numbers of people. People cooperate & form tribes as the extended family grows larger - these are all necessary for distribution of labour and economic & political systems to emerge. Its logical. There of course are better & worse ways of doing this from a flourishing harmonious society to a decaying society (N.Korea, Somalia...) These are not illusions - Somalia just has a dysfunctional system.
Man, you don't have to tell me that - today I aced an exam of Theory of social change! That's some Piotr Sztompka for the win Smartass
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21-01-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: What is Spirit?
(21-01-2014 10:20 AM)Luminon Wrote:  ...I could not pass the opportunity to make a RACIST joke...

Fixed that for ya, you delusional fucking racist moron.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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21-01-2014, 11:24 AM
RE: What is Spirit?
(21-01-2014 10:20 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I study the occult philosophy, which has a technical jargon with rules and deep meanings.

Please explain those "rules" to me. Is there a particular pagan doctrine you follow? A path you follow? Cause I am unfamiliar with "rules" once you step outside of main-stream religions.

Huh

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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