What is Spirit?
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22-01-2014, 06:04 PM (This post was last modified: 22-01-2014 06:16 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(22-01-2014 05:52 PM)Luminon Wrote:  As you wish. But it is not the drug that gets you high. It is you. Your self, your brain, your soul, that is thrown out of concept in a specific way. The drug is just an irritant, a footprint in the anthill of your neurons. I prefer to teach my proverbial ants to orderly dance instead of sending them into this desperate outside-induced activity. And the pineal gland is buzzing happily, like the ant queen deep inside the hill.

The baseline for any search algorithm is "Can you show it's better than a random walk?" Many algorithms get caught in local minima/maxima 'cause they don't take into account the complexity of the terrain. That sounds like your algorithm to Girly. And your need for an "orderly dance" is what seems desperate to Girly. So there. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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22-01-2014, 06:25 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(22-01-2014 06:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The baseline for any search algorithm is "Can you show it's better than a random walk?" And your desire for an "orderly dance" is what seems desperate to Girly. So there. Tongue
It is not me who desires order. It is the "ant queen" or the "higher self" - a strange thing for which I can't take credit, but which I respect. It made its presence felt and from that time I consider my brain its sacred temple and I take care not to use too much... wine and crackers.
But better than what? Higher self can take the smaller self for a walk through hell. Only if you keep walking, you stop caring where you walk, but with Whom you walk. But you've got the desperation right - usually it's not the Higher self who brings the desperation, it's us and the circumstances of our life. Who would turn inwards voluntarily with empty hands, when outside there's so many convenient intoxicants? Wink
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22-01-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
quote]Luminon wrote
Tell scientist that a quasar million light years away suggests a 0,01 % correction on the cosmological constant and he will believe you. Tell a scientist that a radioactive marker injected into human body spreads in pathways described by ancient Chinese medicine, and he'll send you to hell.
(meaning, my attempt at introducing some science was met with cold welcome)
...That's because there is poorly established evidence for meridians in Chinese medicine. (note: I didn't say no evidence or that people have not tried to establish evidence)

eg:
Bioelectromagnetics. 2008 May;29(4):245-56. doi: 10.1002/bem.20403.
Electrical properties of acupuncture points and meridians: a systematic review.
Ahn AC et al

Quote: The studies were generally poor in quality and limited by small sample size and multiple confounders. Based on this review, the evidence does not conclusively support the claim that acupuncture points or meridians are electrically distinguishable
...and science is open ended and if you understand the scientific method it does not have to be dogmatic as the paper continues...
Quote:However, the preliminary findings are suggestive and offer future directions for research based on in-depth interpretation of the data
.

Another paper which is more favourable towards meridians but still has limitations & some poor study design quotes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18240287
Quote:Other studies have identified functional correlates including reduced electrical impedance [8], [9], [10] and enhanced migration of nuclear tracers [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]. However, due to multiple study design limitations - including inadequate descriptions of acupuncture point/meridian localization, small sample size, and unexplained statistical analysis - a definitive conclusion regarding the scientific basis of these structures is difficult to establish.

So - the jury is still out, perhaps there are some correlations with medical anatomy & Chinese meridians. It would help if the Chinese agreed on the meridian points - but perhaps its just highly complicated or perhaps there is pseudoscience - as I said, the jury is still out. A close colleague of mine is an acupuncturist and a pharmacist and does find some benefit to his patients, I personally have not found benefit. Maybe there is some genuine physiology going on, maybe placebo producing physiological effects - we don't fully know.

In any case - the idea that somehow the ancients knowledge is somehow suppressed by a great science conspiracy which you seem to support Lumicron is ludicrous - I work within the medical field daily and most medicines are derived from ancient herbal sources. If the herbal medicines work they become mainstream medicine. Digoxin, anticancer medicines (vinka alkaloids, Taxanes), penicillins and numerous other medicines originate from a mix of trial and error, chance experiments and folklore.
Meditation also works to a limited degree and can be used along side or as an alternate to cognitive behavioural therapies (and other psychological techniques) or medication - each have their place, their pro's and con's.


]
Quote:Luminon wrote
Why? Because there is an underlying assumption that our knowledge is more complete in all aspects than the knowledge of our ancestors, that nothing got lost or marginalized as a religion or superstition that might have a real basis.
Well - see what I wrote above - no one assumes our knowledge in science is complete or ancients got everything wrong. However what the ancients got right becomes science and they did get a huge amount wrong !
Of course its possible for ancients to have wisdom and some of it becoming mainstream evidence based science - however you have to beware of the "fallacy of appeal to ancient wisdom"
Quote:The Appeal to Ancient Wisdom is an informal logical fallacy. It is the bastard child of the appeal to authority and the appeal to tradition
...and yes I know there is another fallacy of appealing to everything new, novel & "modern" ...and the fallacy of appealing to anything on the fringe.....and fallacy of appealing to anything not on the fringe but endorsed by the majority........

...that's why my original post emphasised the importance of understanding the scientific method and scepticism to work ones way through this minefield of fallacies.

Quote:Reason and science are only as good as their instruments. And there is a great disparity in instruments. Scientists assume that human body is always worse as an instrument, which is usually true, but not in this case. Technical instruments will be better some day, but right now, there are technical reasons why this is not so
.
What on earth are you talking about ? Have you studied medicine or pharmacology ?

Quote: ]Luminon wrote
Scientists assume that human body is always worse as an instrument
???When there is pain you ask the person "do you have pain" - Ok, there are limitations and the subjectivity can be tricky as some cognitive biases have demonstrated - but no one is claiming the "human body is a worse instrument" as some grand scientific assumption ?
If I wont to see bacteria I use a microscope - so yes, the human body does sometimes require technological extensions (microscopes, telescopes, MRI etc)


Quote:As much as I dislike Descartes, I'd agree with him on this one. I too have strong sensations of vibrations and ringing felt in the place of pineal gland, especially when meditating. It is easy to understand why he'd think that pineal gland is a seat of consciousness, the question is, why it feels like one.
But this is not anti-scientific, this is an empirical observation.
OK you have vibrations & ringing sensations where you perceive your pineal gland to be - interesting testimony. Not much else can be inferred from this, just based on this observation about the seat of consciousness. Some people get vibration sensations in any part of their body and it can easily be suggested with hypnotherapy (I am a trained hypnotist)

Quote:I don't doubt science in the least, but I did not make up my empirical observations either. And if science doesn't deal with them, then I will and I can do my own little low-budget research. Is my evidence really crappy? Well, so is my budget. It's a hobby, not a career.
Granted its a hobby, enjoy your hobby. Some people engineer new trains whilst others go train spotting. Each to his or her own.

Quote:As for the occult revelation, it's not me doing the revelation and it's strictly non-dogmatic. Anyone can think about it what they want. Some day science will set the record straight. Maybe even a few scientists will get inspired by this stuff, I'd be glad if they were,
Like I previously mentioned I have researched and practiced meditation - I don't have a problem with this as an avenue for research and there are some published papers with favourable conclusions (eg for mild to mod depression and anxiety. However meditation is not the answer to every problem and there are many parts of medicine which it has limited use. I think you agreed that hands on experimental research with tough rational deliberation is often required.

Quote: .........it is basically following the M-theory.
That's exactly my point, you take some sensations in meditation, some speculative metaphysics and then say "Its M theory" Are you a physicist ?
Publish your finding in Advances in Theoretical and Mathematical Physics and we can then talk.
http://www.springer.com/physics/theoreti...rnal/11232
[Image: 11232.jpg]

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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22-01-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
Quote: Lumicron:
As you wish. But it is not the drug that gets you high. It is you. Your self, your brain, your soul, that is thrown out of concept in a specific way. The drug is just an irritant, a footprint in the anthill of your neurons. I prefer to teach my proverbial ants to orderly dance instead of sending them into this desperate outside-induced activity. And the pineal gland is buzzing happily, like the ant queen deep inside the hill.

Lumicron - what gives you the impression that "outside" + "inside" induced are so clearly delineated ?
Perhaps body posture and meditation induces different neuronal brain chemistry - ultimately all experience being related to neuronal & glial interactions, chemistry and interrelationship between brain, body & local environment.
My being well trained in biofeedback & visualization I can increase my heart rate & likewise an injection of adrenaline might have similar effects - but ultimately its all going on in a brain/body/local-environment interplay.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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22-01-2014, 07:25 PM (This post was last modified: 22-01-2014 07:43 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(22-01-2014 06:25 PM)Luminon Wrote:  It is not me who desires order. It is the "ant queen" or the "higher self" - a strange thing for which I can't take credit, but which I respect.

Don't see much difference between that and Girly's Own Personal Jesus. 'Cept for the part where you don't take credit and fucker serves at my motherfucking Girly whim.

(22-01-2014 06:25 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Higher self can take the smaller self for a walk through hell.

Where the "higher self" makes its mistake is what it considers the "smaller self" is far far bigger than the "higher self" has yet to perceive, let alone comprehend or appreciate. The "smaller self" likes it that way. If I can't pilot the ship they will replace me. They've done it before.


(22-01-2014 06:25 PM)Luminon Wrote:  But better than what?

More efficient in time and/or storage is what it means algorithmically.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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22-01-2014, 07:39 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
Quote:Lumicron:
I get a *feel* for people here. They're mostly survivors of religion and not eager to get anywhere near anything that even remotely resembles religion.
Well, it is an atheist blog. That didn't require any revelations, ESP or clairvoyance.

Quote:That's inevitable and predictable. People like those similar to them and dislike those different. (what a sin Dodgy )
Well - that is not always a dodgy approach. I dislike Nazi's because they are different to me....and I want to keep it that way.

Quote:Lumicron:
However, there may be a few here and there who recovered from religion and are ready to explore the depths again, or even just acknowledge existence of the subjective depths.
Part of the challenge is there is genuine discovery on the fringes of what is known or "fringe science" - but one also needs to be grounded in sceptical critique - even of ones own subjective 1st person experience. The fringes & "borderlines of science" can be a great interest to explore, develop and mature new discoveries - but the borderlines & fringes are also the great trash heap of psuedosciences, quacks, woo & dead ends.

Quote:I don't expect to be doing well in this thread.
clearly.

Quote:There's too little curiosity about anything but material products, preferably science-approved, government-permitted and available on the market.
Ay ????

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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22-01-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(22-01-2014 08:53 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I don't expect to be doing well in this thread. There's too little curiosity about anything but material products, preferably science-approved, government-permitted and available on the market.

"There're all just not listening 'cause The Man got 'em first, maaaaaan!"

No. For fuck's sake.

If you really, truly, sincerely can do no better than "lol conspiracy" it's time to take a long, hard look in the mirror.

... this is my signature!
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22-01-2014, 08:28 PM (This post was last modified: 22-01-2014 08:51 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(22-01-2014 07:11 PM)Baruch Wrote:  So - the jury is still out, perhaps there are some correlations with medical anatomy & Chinese meridians. It would help if the Chinese agreed on the meridian points - but perhaps its just highly complicated or perhaps there is pseudoscience - as I said, the jury is still out. A close colleague of mine is an acupuncturist and a pharmacist and does find some benefit to his patients, I personally have not found benefit. Maybe there is some genuine physiology going on, maybe placebo producing physiological effects - we don't fully know.

In any case - the idea that somehow the ancients knowledge is somehow suppressed by a great science conspiracy which you seem to support Lumicron is ludicrous - I work within the medical field daily and most medicines are derived from ancient herbal sources. If the herbal medicines work they become mainstream medicine. Digoxin, anticancer medicines (vinka alkaloids, Taxanes), penicillins and numerous other medicines originate from a mix of trial and error, chance experiments and folklore.
Meditation also works to a limited degree and can be used along side or as an alternate to cognitive behavioural therapies (and other psychological techniques) or medication - each have their place, their pro's and con's.
I'm glad they didn't give up on the topic entirely. You know what happened to me? Let's say I meditate happily and often, energy is buzzing, and over the weeks or months, there are developments. I can feel lines on my body with warm, tingly electric-like feeling, lines on my face, on my back, even hands. I can feel them in detail and points on them as well.
Then I look (then, not before!) on the meridian charts and lo and behold, there are meridian lines and points exactly in the places where I felt them before. That happened to me multiple times and I do not have doubts about the existence of meridians. As far as I am concerned, they are real, whatever they physically are.

So maybe you can understand my great frustration when science didn't yet develop to where I am and it's leaving me still in the dark. However, I lived for 24 years and didn't feel any meridians (except the big ones when I had migraine). They just weren't active, pretty much. They are probably not very active in most people. So I think detecting them would be rather difficult if the energy is not flowing in them, right? They may be real, but they can't be demonstrated on a random guy on the street. You need someone who's using them. There's Laya Yoga, an Indian technique of concentrating on the meridians and centers to put more energy through them. And meditation overall increases the amount of energy available. So you see that there may be unforeseen but logical technical difficulties. This isn't heart, where you measure a heartbeat in everyone alive. This is something that not everyone has working on the same level.
I meditate for years and until recently most of this stuff was just a theory for me.

(22-01-2014 07:22 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Lumicron - what gives you the impression that "outside" + "inside" induced are so clearly delineated ?
Perhaps body posture and meditation induces different neuronal brain chemistry - ultimately all experience being related to neuronal & glial interactions, chemistry and interrelationship between brain, body & local environment.
My being well trained in biofeedback & visualization I can increase my heart rate & likewise an injection of adrenaline might have similar effects - but ultimately its all going on in a brain/body/local-environment interplay.
Would you please stop messing with my nickname?
OK, so I don't know what do you mean. I perceive this meridian and vortex system. And it works pretty much like a more direct way of messing with the nerve system. I don't know about heart rate, I use it mostly to get high. There's one explanation why the yogis in India can sit next to a dusty road all day long. They're tripping their balls off.

My occult teaching explicitly claims (which is very rare), that in the future the existence of this subtle energy system in the body may be demonstrated by advanced trained people, who will for example focus on a particular energetic center. The centers are all connected to nearby major ductless glands, and so a gland will be activated and produce some hormone. This should happen even if the gland is known to be active only in early childhood and not in adults. Thus there will be some evidence that there is something real about this stuff.

You might have a great point there with body posture. Itzhak Bentov did a research on this. A straight body posture is said to be extremely important to let the heartbeat vibrations resonate with the cerebro-spinal system. He used a ballistocardiograph to measure these vibrations. Bentov speculates of a mechanism of the Kundalini phenomenon. This is known to be very dangerous to unprepared people... What it resembles the most is a slow discharge of an electric potential between head and the bottom of spine. If unprepared, it is more like burning out from short circuit. Where does the energy come from? I don't know, but the body has a lot of electric properties, it's not all equally conductive. Maybe all this meditation builds up an electric potential in it.
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22-01-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
'Luminon

Quote:The teaching is about worlds, forces, bodies and laws and relationships between them as they progress in development of certain qualities within certain cycles.

Give some examples - try be specific. Have a go...

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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22-01-2014, 08:38 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
Quote:Luminon 'Would you please stop messing with my nickname?

unintentional - should do more cut n' paste. Apology.
(or when cut n' paste - get it right the first time !)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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