What is Spirit?
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23-01-2014, 08:05 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(23-01-2014 06:11 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If I got this device, I'd do this experiment and that would be about it. I don't know what more would you want. The device itself is a scientific anomaly, in that it detects people and vegetables, but not rocks. (count that as a falsification) And it's not detecting electro-magnetism (or ferromagnetism), temperature or anything else known to science.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJP_DbcNU8U
It looks to me like that device is measuring the electrical conductivity of objects.

That would explain why it reacts so strongly to things that are primarily made up of water while doing nothing when used on a rock.

I'd be interested to see what would happen if he was to put a piece of copper or any other conductive metal on his machine. Consider

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23-01-2014, 08:18 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(23-01-2014 07:43 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 07:03 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  (1) I did try to warn you that there'd need to be evidence for what you wanted to spout here. Warned ja. I did Cool Why? Check the name on the door: ATHEIST............aka the Non-bullshit-buyers of this our fair planet. Done.
Well, you did say that, I suppose. Took me long time to notice. But then why do you talk about spirit at all, if you know there is no evidence? Was it your idea to begin with? What's your stance on the concept of spirit? Does anyone have any questions on this concept, or was it meant just as a usual concept-bashing to relieve tension in mutual agreement on what nonsense it is?

(23-01-2014 06:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Reminds me of the second person to take LSD.
I suppose this is why St. Albert gave LSD to the world. It's an acid for softening the scientific hard heads.
Something like an embarrassment ritual so they don't act so high & mighty, only high Tongue

(23-01-2014 06:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Subjective personal mystical experiences can be quite compelling for the subject. But it must necessarily be described and recalled by analogy and metaphor. Mistaking the metaphor for the experience and analyzing the metaphor thinking one is explaining the experience is the difference between occultism and mysticism. Mysticism good, occultism bad. Tongue

"The Rose is without a 'wherefor'—she blooms because she blooms." - Angelus Silesius

Here I differ. My teaching almost frowns on mysticism. Mysticism is the path of the past that bypassed the intellect, because there was not much science around to learn in ye olde times. The modern occultist must understand his path also intellectually and seek to reconcile it with exoteric science and reason (damn, looks like it's my religious duty), because it is dangerous to have many ignorant people walking around and exploring mystical experiences. A mystic who thinks his mysticism is basically an elaborate delusion will probably not work with this experience intelligently and responsibly, but will use it for entertainment. This would be relatively safe if the experience wasn't real. But if it isn't real, why does mystic undergo it? Or why does he call himself a mystic?

(Warning! No evidence ahead! Proceed at your own risk!)
[no evidence]
Occultism needs intellectual understanding, it is similar to science, unlike mysticism. Each kingdom is developing by the contact with a higher kingdom. For example, the rose blooms, because each kingdom of life seeks to "radiate" in some way as its final stage of development. This "radiation" serves to put it in contact with higher kingdoms, such as animal (bees) and human (women who like roses). Subsequently, the higher kingdom acts upon the lower with pollination and selective breeding, for example. This is supposed to remind us that we humans are also a natural kingdom and that we also have another natural kingdom above us and we need to think what is our means of contacting it properly and how can we treat the lower natural kingdoms gently, morally, for mutual benefit. In the end, occultist must embrace the heartfelt approach of mystic and mystic must learn expertise of occultist - or they won't be allowed through the door of initiation. We ain't letting any half-assed spirits outta o' here, is the policy of our higher natural kingdom.
Thus my occult teaching says.
[/no evidence]

(23-01-2014 06:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  That said, western medicine is only now starting to appreciate the empiricism of millennia of traditional Chinese medicine. Western medicine typically (but not always) looks for a mechanism of action before accepting a drug while TCM looks to treating the patient and relies on a shitload of analogies and metaphors as mnemonic devices to remember all their convoluted shamanic concoctions. But they realize they are just metaphors and analogies, not explanations.
Your tolerant and well-informed words are soothing my metaphorical natural soul.



Lumi
I believe in the HUMAN spirit.
No connection to deity nor woo required.
That is all.

No - I cannot really define it (well once upon a time I thought I had a handle on it - then that blew out of the water for me *shrug* I really don't know now)
so......
yes.......... weird and unpopular as it may be I believe in the human spirit.
Can I really define it or do I try HARD to explain what I believe that to be? No.
No, I don't. To me - some things are fine as concepts, ideas and feelings. I don't argue about them and I don't get my feelings hurt if people say WTF about these concepts. I don't sell it. It doesn't matter if people agree or disagree with me on this. And I'd openly admit 100% that this thing I call *human spirit* could very well be Just my imagination. That's ok too. Loony maybe.....but at least I'm honest about that.

Look - sometimes I think if you work REALLY really hard to define and commit and then SELL and PROMOTE your ideas and thoughts online in forums......you're begging for some sort of confirmation, some legitimate pat on the back for your ideas, your concepts, your treks off the text books.
It's as bad as trying to find back-up for faith. There isn't any.

Some people should ask themselves why they need validation? Why they need others to verify their beliefs? Especially don't try to sell it to an audience who will demand some sort of proof. You don't have any. Period.
I have zero hard proof to this idea I have on Human Spirit. Soooooo........ I don't argue about it.

You asked me. And I've answer you honestly. But I won't try to *sell it*, nor worry about it nor feel intimidated, belittled, condemned and persecuted IF/When others don't agree. Some day science will either conclude With or Against this idea I have on spirit. I'm groovy till then all by my lonesome.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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23-01-2014, 08:19 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2014 08:22 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(23-01-2014 08:05 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It looks to me like that device is measuring the electrical conductivity of objects.

That would explain why it reacts so strongly to things that are primarily made up of water while doing nothing when used on a rock.

I'd be interested to see what would happen if he was to put a piece of copper or any other conductive metal on his machine. Consider
Curiously enough, that is not the case. Not according to what the manufacturer and all the users say. Anyway, on the video there was a big difference between an onion and potato. To my best knowledge, it should react much stronger to a person than to any piece of metal, although there may be a bit stronger reaction to metal sheets. It should also react strongly to layered dielectric materials called "orgone blankets", which I think contain metal layers along with organic layers.

Does that quote relate to your concern? I'm not sure. The conductivity question would be the first thing to test and it would really be a huge disappointment if it was just a conductivity meter. (looks like they've got a new version!)
http://www.orgonelab.org/cart/ylemeter.htm
The Experimental Life-Energy Field Meter meter works along entirely new principles quite different from any other measuring device currently on the market. Is entirely different from ordinary "EM-field" meters. It is not responsive to electromagnetic fields, nor to static magnetic or electrostatic fields. An electrostatically-charged plastic comb or wand, for example, will show no reactions at the Life Energy Field Meter, other than what would occur from the same plastic comb or wand without the electrostatic charge. This is quite different from the usual voltmeter, which reacts strongly to electrostatic fields, but only weakly and temporarily to your hand. Likewise, no greater readings will be developed between an ordinary piece of metal, or the same piece of metal strongly magnetized. The Life Energy Field Meter responds only to the presence of living organisms, and also more weakly to liquid water, and to moisture-bearing and metal-containing materials...
This is the claim to be verified, nothing less. It sure is bold. Just like the price, 380 bucks.
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23-01-2014, 08:30 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2014 08:37 PM by Vosur.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(23-01-2014 08:19 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Curiously enough, that is not the case. Not according to what the manufacturer and all the users say. Anyway, on the video there was a big difference between an onion and potato. To my best knowledge, it should react much stronger to a person than to any piece of metal, although there may be a bit stronger reaction to metal sheets. It should also react strongly to layered dielectric materials called "orgone blankets", which I think contain metal layers along with organic layers.
Their claim to the contrary is not exactly convincing, especially given the fact that the things you point out (e.g. that it reacts stronger to metal than to humans) confirm my hypothesis.

(23-01-2014 08:19 PM)Luminon Wrote:  "[...] The Life Energy Field Meter responds only to the presence of living organisms, and also more weakly to liquid water, and to moisture-bearing and metal-containing materials."
Hence why I think that electrical conductivity is what is being measured. Note that every living thing is made up of water.

My hypothesis would also explain why the device reacts more strongly after being held in someone's hand for 10 minute since the sweat emitted from the skin would moisturize the surface of the object even more.

I would love to test my hypothesis, but I'm not about to spend $380 on this thing. If you were to buy me one, however, ... Wink

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23-01-2014, 08:56 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2014 09:04 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(23-01-2014 07:43 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 06:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Reminds me of the second person to take LSD.
I suppose this is why St. Albert gave LSD to the world. It's an acid for softening the scientific hard heads.
Something like an embarrassment ritual so they don't act so high & mighty, only high Tongue


Think dude was actually looking for a blood pressure medication. But sometimes shit just happens and shit. Tongue

(23-01-2014 07:43 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Here I differ. My teaching almost frowns on mysticism. Mysticism is the path of the past that bypassed the intellect, because there was not much science around to learn in ye olde times.

Some reason we shouldn't still maintain paths that bypass the intellect today?

(23-01-2014 07:43 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Occultism needs intellectual understanding, it is similar to science, unlike mysticism.

Why not just do science then? And mysticism too? Like St. Albert did. Why try to mix oil and water?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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23-01-2014, 09:04 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2014 09:22 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(23-01-2014 08:18 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Lumi
I believe in the HUMAN spirit.
No connection to deity nor woo required.
That is all.

No - I cannot really define it (well once upon a time I thought I had a handle on it - then that blew out of the water for me *shrug* I really don't know now)
so......
yes.......... weird and unpopular as it may be I believe in the human spirit.
Can I really define it or do I try HARD to explain what I believe that to be? No.
No, I don't. To me - some things are fine as concepts, ideas and feelings. I don't argue about them and I don't get my feelings hurt if people say WTF about these concepts. I don't sell it. It doesn't matter if people agree or disagree with me on this. And I'd openly admit 100% that this thing I call *human spirit* could very well be Just my imagination. That's ok too. Loony maybe.....but at least I'm honest about that.

Well, that is actually not so different from what I believe in. I am a passionate humanist. And all my occult teaching boils down to that and I wouldn't have it any other way. We are more than our thoughts, which may turn into mind-forg'd manacles. Such as tyranny of faith in invisible things, and tyranny of the obvious. The Path that I try to walk on is between such pairs of opposites.

If that isn't too intrusive to you, would you try to... not define, but at least describe the human spirit to me? I'd like to know if this is the same thing that I feel. Pointing me towards a post where you already did so would be fine too. (don't worry, I'll look over the thread of Mormonism)
Whatever you think of me, I believe this human spirit is a widespread historical phenomenon and its effects can be found in many various kinds of people - especially from their goodness, because it is a profound experience and it changes people a lot. I consider such people my brothers and sisters and I'd be glad if I can tell them that they are not alone in their experience. (and I can provide a shitload of related literature)

I agree with you about the definition. I don't think we can define things outside of our language, jargon or paradigm or however you choose to call a logical system of reference to reality. We can only define things inside of that- and prove them as well. No evidence or definition is possible outside of a paradigm. This is why I keep so huge occult philosophy, it helps me to define what I think is the human spirit itself, within an even greater context. And what I can name and define, I can work with and try to cooperate with in a closer way and obtain more of the subjective personal evidence. The only objective evidence I might have now is a positive effect of the Path on me as a person, in walk of my body, tone of my voice, pronunciation, clarity of mind, purity of heart (ahem...), knowing good ideas from bad once I see them...

(23-01-2014 08:18 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Look - sometimes I think if you work REALLY really hard to define and commit and then SELL and PROMOTE your ideas and thoughts online in forums......you're begging for some sort of confirmation, some legitimate pat on the back for your ideas, your concepts, your treks off the text books.
It's as bad as trying to find back-up for faith. There isn't any.

Some people should ask themselves why they need validation? Why they need others to verify their beliefs? Especially don't try to sell it to an audience who will demand some sort of proof. You don't have any. Period.
I have zero hard proof to this idea I have on Human Spirit. Soooooo........ I don't argue about it.

You asked me. And I've answer you honestly. But I won't try to *sell it*, nor worry about it nor feel intimidated, belittled, condemned and persecuted IF/When others don't agree. Some day science will either conclude With or Against this idea I have on spirit. I'm groovy till then all by my lonesome.
Thank you for all the answers you provided or will provide. I must explain myself. I think there was a misunderstanding. I don't feel the need to sell and promote the spirit topics any more than I seek to sell and promote my underpants. It's a very personal thing for me. What I seek is confidence, sharing, comradeship, intimacy, helpfulness, altruism, curiosity... But... I understand social contact as sort of a trade. There is no relationship of just giving or just taking, there must be exchange and I feel like I have so much to give. As my books say, those who can't stand alone have nothing to contribute, and I have stood alone for a long, long time.

But I am quite content to stick with the topic - I don't really start paranormal topics all that often. I am quite content with doing philosophy. I just can't resist any topic that falls into any area of my expertise.
I have enough unusual experiences to make a few solid LSD trips if put together. And they slowly but surely go up in quality and quantity, I can't really complain about lack of "faith" or "evidence". This is not the thing I seek.

(23-01-2014 08:56 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Some reason we shouldn't still maintain paths that bypass the intellect today?
The problem with mysticism is, it is basically a very, very refined version of religion. If a religious person does really good progress, then he becomes advanced on the mystical path. It is their way of least resistance.
A mystic cheats in esoteric practice, because he does not try to describe how he did things, he does not work with trial and error that other people could learn from, as it works with science. Whatever you think of occultists, they at least try to use the scientific method in the subjective world, they try to describe, define and classify their experience to provide others with some decent waypoints, if they are intellectually inclined too. Mysticism was the preferred method when humanity had too much time. It often involved gurus and obedience to gurus and casting away the gurus' over-idealized image in favor of greater gurus and so on, until the mystic got to the greatest guru of them all, who can't be defined or pinned down at all, such as Sabrina's human spirit.

Of course there are cases among us (like me) with over-exaggerated intellect who need to seek and revive their emotions. Even in the occult books, I was usually the exception in text, rather than the general case garden variety aspirant who needs to sharpen reason and rule his emotions. I need also the opposite, some mysticism to say the least. And a good tumble in the bedsheets.
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23-01-2014, 09:10 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(23-01-2014 09:04 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I have enough unusual experiences to make a few solid LSD trips if put together.

Silly silly boy. ... Consider ... wait ... Consider ... You actually might. Consider

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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23-01-2014, 09:15 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2014 09:20 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(23-01-2014 09:10 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 09:04 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I have enough unusual experiences to make a few solid LSD trips if put together.

Silly silly boy. ... Consider ... wait ... Consider ... You actually might. Consider

I have enough sober moments to make a few solid days, now that the LSD has been removed. Tongue

(23-01-2014 08:18 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Some people should ask themselves why they need validation?

But I won't try to *sell it*, nor worry about it nor feel intimidated, belittled, condemned and persecuted IF/When others don't agree.

Because you're already validated.

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