What is Spirit?
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18-01-2014, 02:46 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(18-01-2014 02:36 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 02:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  There aren't any self-conscious AIs yet, so there's that. Drinking Beverage


Not yet. .. But we got ideas ... Tongue

That's why I said 'yet'. Yes

It will almost certainly happen and we will have some ethical problems to solve.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2014, 02:47 PM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2014 02:51 PM by Luminon.)
RE: What is Spirit?
(18-01-2014 02:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  There aren't any self-conscious AIs yet, so there's that. Drinking Beverage
And there can't be, because they're an idea based on an incoherent definition of a self-conscious being or a person. There is no way to make a person inside a computer short of making a person outside of the computer. Something made in a computer will be something else. And unless it proves it can contact the metaphysical universals of reality outside of the computer reality, it's not conscious.

Unfortunately, by that standard, most persons aren't conscious, but in their case a high school course of Philosophy 101 can fix that.

(18-01-2014 02:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's why I said 'yet'. Yes

It will almost certainly happen and we will have some ethical problems to solve.
I just told you why it can't happen! There will be no ethical dilemma to solve. That is to say, there's no reason why we couldn't ethically appreciate a good robot or AI by the work that it does for us. Ultimately, our bodies are robots too. To a large degree, our personalities as well. The source reality is extremely impersonal.
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18-01-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(18-01-2014 02:36 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 02:32 PM)War Horse Wrote:  As always, let me simplify this;

If some pisses me off, I get the spirit to kick their ass.

That plain enough ? Smartass
That is correct, from a teleological point of view.

I feel insulted and kinda pissed now... Tongue
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18-01-2014, 03:02 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(18-01-2014 01:39 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  "Spirit" for me, is a meaningless term. It is mildly suspicious at the very least, and fucking enraging at its worst. It seems to me that every person has their own private definition, and when they discuss it, it becomes infinitely more confusing. This near inability to define the term illustrates how unclear the idea is. The best explanations I have heard, while still being vague and nebulous, rely on a belief in a supernatural world which resides perfectly in parallel with our own, but remains unseen. As with all supernatural ideas, when I demand evidence, there is none to be found. I personally have concluded that there is no such spiritual realm, and thus no spirituality or spirit.

I also suspect the motives of those who claim knowledge of the spiritual, because they so often do so as a means of promoting human immortality. They do not wish to die (Who can blame them?) and their doctrine is to openly fearful of that reality. I am told that life will continue after death, but not in any tangible way, nor any way in which I might otherwise understand it. I have no desire to participate in wish thinking of that sort, however much comfort it may supply.

I also cannot help but notice the many tricksters and con persons who use this "spiritual realm" as a means of stealing a living. There have been for many years, and still are, those who would claim to read the future, speak to the dead, and summon ancestors and other spirits, all the for the low price of some of your wallet, and all of your dignity. It is impossible for me not to notice the money making machine of this New Age nonsense.

'Dark Phoenix' - I agree with you, you can see that virtually immediately on this thread that the word "spirit" and "spiritual" are indeed very slippery terms.
Throughout history the word had different meanings from "breath" to "soul" to "essence" to "transcendent ego's" to "transcendent renunciation of the ego" to "vitality & well being" to......vodka.

Interesting how it starts of with physical breath and ends with vodka. Must be a link. Breath in first then take a shot of spirit = spiritual drinking.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 03:02 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
OOPS,,I read "theological" .... Sorry Blush
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18-01-2014, 03:04 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(18-01-2014 02:47 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 02:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  There aren't any self-conscious AIs yet, so there's that. Drinking Beverage
And there can't be, because they're an idea based on an incoherent definition of a self-conscious being or a person. There is no way to make a person inside a computer short of making a person outside of the computer. Something made in a computer will be something else. And unless it proves it can contact the metaphysical universals of reality outside of the computer reality, it's not conscious.

Unfortunately, by that standard, most persons aren't conscious, but in their case a high school course of Philosophy 101 can fix that.

(18-01-2014 02:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's why I said 'yet'. Yes

It will almost certainly happen and we will have some ethical problems to solve.
I just told you why it can't happen! There will be no ethical dilemma to solve. That is to say, there's no reason why we couldn't ethically appreciate a good robot or AI by the work that it does for us. Ultimately, our bodies are robots too. To a large degree, our personalities as well. The source reality is extremely impersonal.

And I don't believe you. I think your model of the universe is utterly wrong.

All of the credible evidence so far points to consciousness/mind being entirely brain-based - it is an emergent property. You are still holding out for an élan vital.

I believe I have suggested this book before:
The Mind's I: Fantasies and reflections on self and soul, Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2014, 03:12 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(18-01-2014 03:02 PM)Baruch Wrote:  'Dark Phoenix' - I agree with you, you can see that virtually immediately on this thread that the word "spirit" and "spiritual" are indeed very slippery terms.
Throughout history the word had different meanings from "breath" to "soul" to "essence" to "transcendent ego's" to "transcendent renunciation of the ego" to "vitality & well being" to......vodka.

Interesting how it starts of with physical breath and ends with vodka. Must be a link. Breath in first then take a shot of spirit = spiritual drinking.
Philosophy itself is slippery, it is the stuff beyond the concepts we use. To be a philosopher is like to be able to look under the hood of a car while you're driving it. But it is true that the universe itself is considered as an out-breath of divine creation. Which presumes there will be some kind of in-breath and there is a cycle of breathing in and out. We are the divine breath or spirit that circulates throughout the universe - and not just breath, but voice. The divine sound, AUM or OM manifests all forms into being, similarly to sand patterns on a kymatics sound plate. And if we meditate long and quietly enough, we may hear the small still voice, the voice of the silence...

(18-01-2014 03:02 PM)War Horse Wrote:  OOPS,,I read "theological" .... Sorry Blush
That's OK, your reply still had some teleological meaning - such as your goal was kicking my ass Wink
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18-01-2014, 03:17 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
Simulated life is only as real as the amount of energy/matter it contains, which is typically much less than us, biologic people. Which is why we are allowed erase and destroy self-conscious AIs and robots without any qualms. Killing an android is not murder, because it is not killing.
[/quote]

I will strongly disagree with you here. A self conscious AI by definition is going to be above the threshold of complexity of energy/matter for consciousness to emerge - it should be no different to a brain which has emergent consciousness. The same rules should apply to both.

Current AI would have "much less than us" in terms of complexity but they are not conscious and obviously no issue "erasing them" (technically there is no consciousness to erase in the first place)

Also - complexity of energy/matter has nothing to do with it - its the way it is organized not how complex or how much energy/matter it contains.
Eg a human in a deep coma (10 on coma scale) may have a more complex brain but no consciousness whilst a chimpanzee has a less complex brain but much more conscious awareness than the coma patient. Likewise with severe Alzheimer's patient who still has an extremely complex emergent consciousness but lacks key functions we associate with self awareness, identity, personality etc.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 03:22 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(18-01-2014 03:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 02:47 PM)Luminon Wrote:  And there can't be, because they're an idea based on an incoherent definition of a self-conscious being or a person. There is no way to make a person inside a computer short of making a person outside of the computer. Something made in a computer will be something else. And unless it proves it can contact the metaphysical universals of reality outside of the computer reality, it's not conscious.

Unfortunately, by that standard, most persons aren't conscious, but in their case a high school course of Philosophy 101 can fix that.

I just told you why it can't happen! There will be no ethical dilemma to solve. That is to say, there's no reason why we couldn't ethically appreciate a good robot or AI by the work that it does for us. Ultimately, our bodies are robots too. To a large degree, our personalities as well. The source reality is extremely impersonal.

And I don't believe you. I think your model of the universe is utterly wrong.

All of the credible evidence so far points to consciousness/mind being entirely brain-based - it is an emergent property. You are still holding out for an élan vital.

I believe I have suggested this book before:
The Mind's I: Fantasies and reflections on self and soul, Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett.


Agree with Chaos and his book suggestion. Very interesting book uses thought experiments, reveals limits of introspection and discusses various puzzles about consciousness. I would agree that many people intuitively still hold on to "élan vital" of that there is some "master essence" in charge of the self as a master controller or ultimate essence. Along with that most people (usually the non philosophers or scientists) intuitively hold on to dualism.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 03:30 PM
RE: What is Spirit?
(18-01-2014 01:03 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Spirit is energy.


... and......... that.... is where we step right off the cliff into Woo territory.


I'll get you for this GwenMan. I'll get you for starting a thread on the word "spirit"! grrrrrrr
LOL

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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