What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
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31-03-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 10:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  Libertarian fanbois are tiresome.
Who do you think is "the government"? Don't you understand that we the people need to negotiate and decide things for a functional society.
The point that you are missing is that a majority vote can end up oppressing the minorities.
If the majority are Christian and they believe it immoral for gays to be married then they make it illegal for gays to get married.

But, if they give up on the idea of controlling others for the sake of their own moral beliefs then they might allow gays to get married despite their own person moral beliefs on the matter.

Taking a philosophical view of how does this impact my and societies saftey means that government don't go overboard and try to control people unnecessarily.

I certainly have some respect for people who are willing to give up on the idea of controlling others despite their beliefs to the contrary.
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31-03-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 12:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 10:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  That debate is over.
for closeminded people the debate never began.

I am close minded then, because that debate never fucking began.

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31-03-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 12:13 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 12:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  for closeminded people the debate never began.

I am close minded then, because that debate never fucking began.
And for many Catholics the debate on abortion never began.
For them abortion is abhorrent and they will never listen to its merrits.
Same boat, different port.
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31-03-2014, 12:15 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 12:13 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I am close minded then, because that debate never fucking began.
And for many Catholics the debate on abortion never began.
For them abortion is abhorrent and they will never listen to its merrits.
Same boat, different port.

No

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31-03-2014, 12:16 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 01:09 PM by Pickup_shonuff.)
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 12:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 10:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  Libertarian fanbois are tiresome.
Who do you think is "the government"? Don't you understand that we the people need to negotiate and decide things for a functional society.
The point that you are missing is that a majority vote can end up oppressing the minorities.
If the majority are Christian and they believe it immoral for gays to be married then they make it illegal for gays to get married.

But, if they give up on the idea of controlling others for the sake of their own moral beliefs then they might allow gays to get married despite their own person moral beliefs on the matter.

Taking a philosophical view of how does this impact my and societies saftey means that government don't go overboard and try to control people unnecessarily.

I certainly have some respect for people who are willing to give up on the idea of controlling others despite their beliefs to the contrary.

I don't think anyone advocated that the majority should always simply win out. I think the arguments should be heard and the most reasonable one should prevail. That's essentially why we have judges who can overturn majority vote.
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31-03-2014, 12:20 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 12:23 PM by cjlr.)
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 12:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  The point that you are missing is that a majority vote can end up oppressing the minorities.

I'm... pretty sure he is aware of that, actually.

So there's that.

(31-03-2014 12:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If the majority are Christian and they believe it immoral for gays to be married then they make it illegal for gays to get married.

But, if they give up on the idea of controlling others for the sake of their own moral beliefs then they might allow gays to get married despite their own person moral beliefs on the matter.

I don't think you really understand how other people think.
(a lot of people originating similar statements tend not to)

The strongest anti-gay rhetoric originates from those who think the mere existence of - and therefore any visibility for - homosexuality is in itself a socially harmful phenomenon. Just because you don't agree with purity morality doesn't mean it isn't real for people who feel that way.

It's not just "people shouldn't do things I don't personally like". That's a facetious straw man.

(31-03-2014 12:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Taking a philosophical view of how does this impact my and societies saftey means that government don't go overboard and try to control people unnecessarily.

Same deal.

In everyone's mind the things they propose be regulated are of necessity, at minimum insofar as the pros outweigh the cons.

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31-03-2014, 12:21 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 12:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 10:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  That debate is over.
for closeminded people the debate never began.

The debate has happened in every culture.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-03-2014, 12:23 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 12:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 10:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  Libertarian fanbois are tiresome.
Who do you think is "the government"? Don't you understand that we the people need to negotiate and decide things for a functional society.
The point that you are missing is that a majority vote can end up oppressing the minorities.
If the majority are Christian and they believe it immoral for gays to be married then they make it illegal for gays to get married.

But, if they give up on the idea of controlling others for the sake of their own moral beliefs then they might allow gays to get married despite their own person moral beliefs on the matter.

Taking a philosophical view of how does this impact my and societies saftey means that government don't go overboard and try to control people unnecessarily.

I certainly have some respect for people who are willing to give up on the idea of controlling others despite their beliefs to the contrary.

Simple majority vote decides very little in democratic republics.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-03-2014, 12:38 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 12:20 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I don't think you really understand how other people think.
(a lot of people originating similar statements tend not to)

The strongest anti-gay rhetoric originates from those who think the mere existence of - and therefore any visibility for - homosexuality is in itself a socially harmful phenomenon. Just because you don't agree with purity morality doesn't mean it isn't real for people who feel that way.

It's not just "people shouldn't do things I don't personally like". That's a facetious straw man.
If the person's stance is that it is a socially harmful phenomenon then it is debatable.
However if they take the stance that gay marriage is immoral and is not up for debate then we cannot reason with them.

(31-03-2014 12:20 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 12:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Taking a philosophical view of how does this impact my and societies saftey means that government don't go overboard and try to control people unnecessarily.

Same deal.

In everyone's mind the things they propose be regulated are of necessity, at minimum insofar as the pros outweigh the cons.
I propose that all things that are to be regulated ought to be debatable.
A government saying we will outlaw X because I said so and thus it is not debatable is not a government that I want.
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31-03-2014, 12:40 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 12:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 12:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  for closeminded people the debate never began.

The debate has happened in every culture.
There is at least one culture that I know of that allows infanticide.
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