What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
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31-03-2014, 09:09 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 08:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 08:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  No.

You need to define terms here. What are the bounds?

Is a fertilized ovum living and human?
It is neither able to survive apart from a host nor is it a human being as it has no brain, no organs, no nervous system.
the boundaries of life are a bit murky going by this document Defining Life
But I think it is pretty clear that a fetus is well within those boundaries.

It is human because it has human DNA.

I'm not sure about this quasi-definition of human being or personhood.
Are these definitions really important with regards to your own stance on abortion?
Or do you simply think it's not your own business to interfere?

For me, the definition of personhood is the deciding factor.

Before that point, the woman's rights are paramount, after that point the child's are equal to the mother's.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-03-2014, 09:16 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(30-03-2014 09:58 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  I really find it weird that people act as if a fetus and a baby are different things. One does not simply become a baby at birth. If a fetus is just a clump of cells as some say, then I am just a larger clump of cells or a giant baby.

Clearly you have NO CLUE about embryology. There are many phases and developmental milestones in the formation of a zygote, a fetus, and a baby. Your over-simplification does not serve you. Why is it people with NO CLUE about biological processes engage in discussions in which they have NO competence at all ?

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31-03-2014, 09:19 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 09:03 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 08:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Do you agree that a fetus is living and human?
Yes under the very broad definition of 'human' you gave previously, and insofar as it contains living cells.

No, so far as being comparable to you or I is concerned.
I wasn't setting you or I as the standard of living human.
Personally I think it is a big stretch to say that a fetus is not living or not human.
(31-03-2014 09:03 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 08:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You don't need an ideal in order to recognise that deviations are present. Just compare the DNA of two different humans. Notice that they are different in some ways. Thus they deviate from each other. Thumbsup

That's not what deviate means, though; deviation is from a norm or reference. Mere difference isn't enough to warrant the term!
Anyway, I was just pointing out that we all differ in someway. There is no perfect "human" specimen. Maybe one day humans find themselves as a ring species, if so, it would not be possible to decide which human is the standard by which all other humans are defined as the same species.
But at the moment there is a clear difference between a Human and a Bonobos. We can test a fetus DNA and assess that it is a human fetus.
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31-03-2014, 09:26 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 09:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Anyway, I was just pointing out that we all differ in someway. There is no perfect "human" specimen. Maybe one day humans find themselves as a ring species, if so, it would not be possible to decide which human is the standard by which all other humans are defined as the same species.
But at the moment there is a clear difference between a Human and a Bonobos. We can test a fetus DNA and assess that it is a human fetus.

Yes, a human fetus - not a human being. Not a person.

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31-03-2014, 09:28 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 09:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  For me, the definition of personhood is the deciding factor.

Before that point, the woman's rights are paramount, after that point the child's are equal to the mother's.
OK.

So if you determine personhood to be at the point that consciousness begins. Let's say (hypothetically) that begins at 20 weeks.
What would you do if government make it legal for a woman to abort upto 22 weeks?
Would you interfere?
What lengths would you go to in order to stop the woman?

I presume that some devout Catholics believe personhood to start at conception. They are trying really hard to prevent "persons" from being killed.
I'm not sure that your position and their position are altogether that different. The difference being the stage in the lifecycle at which you believe personhood to begin. But both of you are willing to interfere in the mother's choice, even though the baby is inside her body and impacts her life, but has little to no impact to your own life.
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31-03-2014, 09:56 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 09:28 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 09:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  For me, the definition of personhood is the deciding factor.

Before that point, the woman's rights are paramount, after that point the child's are equal to the mother's.
OK.

So if you determine personhood to be at the point that consciousness begins. Let's say (hypothetically) that begins at 20 weeks.
What would you do if government make it legal for a woman to abort upto 22 weeks?
Would you interfere?
What lengths would you go to in order to stop the woman?

It is not "the government" that decides. You really need to stop that.

Quote:I presume that some devout Catholics believe personhood to start at conception. They are trying really hard to prevent "persons" from being killed.
I'm not sure that your position and their position are altogether that different. The difference being the stage in the lifecycle at which you believe personhood to begin. But both of you are willing to interfere in the mother's choice, even though the baby is inside her body and impacts her life, but has little to no impact to your own life.

Of course what other people do in the society in which I live has an impact on my life.

We, as a society, must determine by reasoned discussion what personhood is.

The Catholics get to have their say, as does everyone else. It is a negotiation.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-03-2014, 10:09 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 10:44 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 09:28 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 09:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  For me, the definition of personhood is the deciding factor.

Before that point, the woman's rights are paramount, after that point the child's are equal to the mother's.
OK.

So if you determine personhood to be at the point that consciousness begins. Let's say (hypothetically) that begins at 20 weeks.
What would you do if government make it legal for a woman to abort upto 22 weeks?
Would you interfere?
What lengths would you go to in order to stop the woman?

I presume that some devout Catholics believe personhood to start at conception. They are trying really hard to prevent "persons" from being killed.
I'm not sure that your position and their position are altogether that different. The difference being the stage in the lifecycle at which you believe personhood to begin. But both of you are willing to interfere in the mother's choice, even though the baby is inside her body and impacts her life, but has little to no impact to your own life.

There is NO WAY "consciousness begins" at 20 weeks. The pre-frontal cortex is not even fully formed, much less getting organized, that early.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...ated=false
"Potential human persons" are not yet human persons.
Mid to Late term abortions are very very rare, and most only done for medical reasons.
Does anyone here actually realize HOW rare they really are ?
Why is it ALWAYS MEN fighting about this ? Mind your own business.

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31-03-2014, 11:03 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 11:37 PM by Stevil.)
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 10:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is NO WAY "consciousness begins" at 20 weeks.
i just picked an arbitrary date (for arguments sake)


(31-03-2014 10:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Mid to Late term abortions are very very rare, and most only done for medical reasons.
Does anyone here actually realize HOW rare they really are ?
Yes I know they are rare. Personally I don't think government needs to legislate.

(31-03-2014 10:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Why is it ALWAYS MEN fighting about this ? Mind your own business.
This is what I am arguing for. A mind your own business policy.
Chas is making a claim that once consciousness kicks in, then it is his business to interfere.
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31-03-2014, 11:34 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 09:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 09:28 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What would you do if government make it legal for a woman to abort upto 22 weeks?
Would you interfere?
What lengths would you go to in order to stop the woman?

It is not "the government" that decides. You really need to stop that.
It is the government who makes the laws.

(31-03-2014 09:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:I presume that some devout Catholics believe personhood to start at conception. They are trying really hard to prevent "persons" from being killed.
I'm not sure that your position and their position are altogether that different. The difference being the stage in the lifecycle at which you believe personhood to begin. But both of you are willing to interfere in the mother's choice, even though the baby is inside her body and impacts her life, but has little to no impact to your own life.

Of course what other people do in the society in which I live has an impact on my life.

We, as a society, must determine by reasoned discussion what personhood is.

The Catholics get to have their say, as does everyone else. It is a negotiation.
Let's say I become the government.
I don't have a belief in personhood and I don't believe that personhood is sacred.
Both you and Mary (a devout Catholic) tell me that you believe personhood to be sacred.
I nod and grin
Mary tells me that personhood begins at conception.
I nod and grin
Chas tells me that personhood begins when consciousness begins.
I nod and grin, I thank you both for your time then bid you well as you leave.

I now sit down and write the law.

Am I to give the police the legal obligation to interfere after conception, after consciousness or at some other point?

How am I to decide?
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31-03-2014, 11:36 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
Why can't men have an opinion on abortion? Many women are opposed to it as well and would encourage men to speak out. The issue is what's important, not the gender of the person addressing it. That's like saying you shouldn't speak out against slavery in the Middle-East unless you live in the Middle-East. I fail to see the rationale in that. Regardless if it's right or wrong that a woman terminates a pregnancy out of matters of convenience, men just as entitled to contemplate the morality of the act. That's not the same as limiting a woman's right to choose. I see no contradiction in supporting pro-life principles while defending an individual's right to privacy.
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