What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
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01-04-2014, 04:57 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 11:36 PM)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:  Why can't men have an opinion on abortion? Many women are opposed to it as well and would encourage men to speak out. The issue is what's important, not the gender of the person addressing it. That's like saying you shouldn't speak out against slavery in the Middle-East unless you live in the Middle-East. I fail to see the rationale in that. Regardless if it's right or wrong that a woman terminates a pregnancy out of matters of convenience, men just as entitled to contemplate the morality of the act. That's not the same as limiting a woman's right to choose. I see no contradiction in supporting pro-life principles while defending an individual's right to privacy.

I think that women just have a hard time accepting advice from men and fully taking a man's opinion on the subject seriously, simply because men will never really understand because they'll never ever be in that situation. The choice is personal to every woman, it is her own body. And for a man to try and force an opinion on you when you know they can't possibly understand is I think why sometimes women don't wanna hear a man's opinion on the subject. The difference between this and the slavery of the Middle East is that it is possible that you could be in that situation - anyone could. But only women could experience the harrowing decision between carrying to term and termination.

I'm not saying that men should not discuss abortion or have an opinion on it, simply suggesting why others might.

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01-04-2014, 05:16 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(01-04-2014 04:57 AM)prettylogical Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 11:36 PM)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:  Why can't men have an opinion on abortion? Many women are opposed to it as well and would encourage men to speak out. The issue is what's important, not the gender of the person addressing it. That's like saying you shouldn't speak out against slavery in the Middle-East unless you live in the Middle-East. I fail to see the rationale in that. Regardless if it's right or wrong that a woman terminates a pregnancy out of matters of convenience, men just as entitled to contemplate the morality of the act. That's not the same as limiting a woman's right to choose. I see no contradiction in supporting pro-life principles while defending an individual's right to privacy.

I think that women just have a hard time accepting advice from men and fully taking a man's opinion on the subject seriously, simply because men will never really understand because they'll never ever be in that situation. The choice is personal to every woman, it is her own body. And for a man to try and force an opinion on you when you know they can't possibly understand is I think why sometimes women don't wanna hear a man's opinion on the subject. The difference between this and the slavery of the Middle East is that it is possible that you could be in that situation - anyone could. But only women could experience the harrowing decision between carrying to term and termination.

I'm not saying that men should not discuss abortion or have an opinion on it, simply suggesting why others might.



THIS is such a good post for several reasons!

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01-04-2014, 06:46 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 11:36 PM)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:  Why can't men have an opinion on abortion? Many women are opposed to it as well and would encourage men to speak out. The issue is what's important, not the gender of the person addressing it. That's like saying you shouldn't speak out against slavery in the Middle-East unless you live in the Middle-East. I fail to see the rationale in that. Regardless if it's right or wrong that a woman terminates a pregnancy out of matters of convenience, men just as entitled to contemplate the morality of the act. That's not the same as limiting a woman's right to choose. I see no contradiction in supporting pro-life principles while defending an individual's right to privacy.

Fail. Fallacy of the false analogy.
Let me know when you find a man that gets pregnant.

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01-04-2014, 07:32 AM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2014 07:45 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 11:34 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 09:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is not "the government" that decides. You really need to stop that.
It is the government who makes the laws.

(31-03-2014 09:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  Of course what other people do in the society in which I live has an impact on my life.

We, as a society, must determine by reasoned discussion what personhood is.

The Catholics get to have their say, as does everyone else. It is a negotiation.
Let's say I become the government.
I don't have a belief in personhood and I don't believe that personhood is sacred.
Both you and Mary (a devout Catholic) tell me that you believe personhood to be sacred.
I nod and grin
Mary tells me that personhood begins at conception.
I nod and grin
Chas tells me that personhood begins when consciousness begins.
I nod and grin, I thank you both for your time then bid you well as you leave.

I now sit down and write the law.

Am I to give the police the legal obligation to interfere after conception, after consciousness or at some other point?

How am I to decide?

You call in some experts, and have some hearings. "After conception" and "at conception" is a meaningless phrase. The experts won't agree on what that even means. No one here can tell us what it means, exactly. The "potential" (human) condition is just as much "potential in place" during the PROCESS of any number of DNA replications, as it is "potential" BEFORE the gametes encounter each other. 'Conception" is no longer a useful term. The majority of human zygotes spontaneously abort before implantation in the uterine wall. http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/sno...oid=919582
If "you" are the government, you ask yourself, "What compelling state interest" (the standard established in Loving v Virginia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia ) is there to be involved in this AT ALL ?
Answer : None,
(unless you are a fundie religious person trying to impose your belief in "souls" on others, and establish your religion in law).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-04-2014, 08:28 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 11:34 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 09:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is not "the government" that decides. You really need to stop that.
It is the government who makes the laws.

No, it is the representatives of the people who make the laws.

Quote:
(31-03-2014 09:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  Of course what other people do in the society in which I live has an impact on my life.

We, as a society, must determine by reasoned discussion what personhood is.

The Catholics get to have their say, as does everyone else. It is a negotiation.
Let's say I become the government.
I don't have a belief in personhood and I don't believe that personhood is sacred.
Both you and Mary (a devout Catholic) tell me that you believe personhood to be sacred.
I nod and grin
Mary tells me that personhood begins at conception.
I nod and grin
Chas tells me that personhood begins when consciousness begins.
I nod and grin, I thank you both for your time then bid you well as you leave.

I now sit down and write the law.

Am I to give the police the legal obligation to interfere after conception, after consciousness or at some other point?

How am I to decide?

Silly argument is silly. Drinking Beverage

We are talking about democracies, not strawman despots.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-04-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(01-04-2014 08:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 11:34 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It is the government who makes the laws.

No, it is the representatives of the people who make the laws.

Oh, silly Chas.

Clearly a representative democracy where legislatures base laws on popular opinion as determined by the participating electorate and as advised by consultation with experts and vetted by constitutional law courts is totally the same as a nebulous unanswerable hivemind dictatorship.

There's clearly no difference at all. WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!

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01-04-2014, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2014 11:58 AM by Pickup_shonuff.)
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(01-04-2014 06:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 11:36 PM)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:  Why can't men have an opinion on abortion? Many women are opposed to it as well and would encourage men to speak out. The issue is what's important, not the gender of the person addressing it. That's like saying you shouldn't speak out against slavery in the Middle-East unless you live in the Middle-East. I fail to see the rationale in that. Regardless if it's right or wrong that a woman terminates a pregnancy out of matters of convenience, men just as entitled to contemplate the morality of the act. That's not the same as limiting a woman's right to choose. I see no contradiction in supporting pro-life principles while defending an individual's right to privacy.

Fail. Fallacy of the false analogy.
Let me know when you find a man that gets pregnant.

Do you know what an analogy is? The only fail here is your inability to recognize the purpose my analogy served, which is that people use your relativistic argument to justify heinous acts ALL THE TIME.

"You're not Muslim so you can't understand/speak on the morality of Sharia law."

That's essentially what you're saying here in regards to the morality of killing human life. I didn't say men can understand how a woman feels in carrying a child--how they feel is completely irrelevant to the moral question. How does a mother feel in caring for a newborn? Should CPS take that into consideration when they discover a case of extreme neglect? To make "how it feels to be a woman" the issue reveals a display of utter density.
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01-04-2014, 11:43 AM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2014 11:58 AM by Pickup_shonuff.)
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(01-04-2014 04:57 AM)prettylogical Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 11:36 PM)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:  Why can't men have an opinion on abortion? Many women are opposed to it as well and would encourage men to speak out. The issue is what's important, not the gender of the person addressing it. That's like saying you shouldn't speak out against slavery in the Middle-East unless you live in the Middle-East. I fail to see the rationale in that. Regardless if it's right or wrong that a woman terminates a pregnancy out of matters of convenience, men just as entitled to contemplate the morality of the act. That's not the same as limiting a woman's right to choose. I see no contradiction in supporting pro-life principles while defending an individual's right to privacy.

I think that women just have a hard time accepting advice from men and fully taking a man's opinion on the subject seriously, simply because men will never really understand because they'll never ever be in that situation. The choice is personal to every woman, it is her own body. And for a man to try and force an opinion on you when you know they can't possibly understand is I think why sometimes women don't wanna hear a man's opinion on the subject. The difference between this and the slavery of the Middle East is that it is possible that you could be in that situation - anyone could. But only women could experience the harrowing decision between carrying to term and termination.

I'm not saying that men should not discuss abortion or have an opinion on it, simply suggesting why others might.

I agree for the most part; one caveat: I WAS at one time a fetus.
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01-04-2014, 12:07 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
I'll take a shot, after putting on my nomex. OK ready...

I strongly feel that if it can live it should live. That being baring a medical condition abortions should be strongly regulated from viabilty to birth.

Prior to viability I am conflicted. I understand both sides of the argument and do not fall in either camp.

The biggest thing that pisses me off over the whole debate is all the effort that is spent trying to win the argument could be spent in makeing the discussion irrelavent. We live in one he most advanced and wealthy nations in the world. There is no reason for women to not have acces to birth control and education so less women have to be confronted with having to make the decision.
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01-04-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(01-04-2014 12:07 PM)wazzel Wrote:  I'll take a shot, after putting on my nomex. OK ready...

I strongly feel that if it can live it should live. That being baring a medical condition abortions should be strongly regulated from viabilty to birth.

Prior to viability I am conflicted. I understand both sides of the argument and do not fall in either camp.

The biggest thing that pisses me off over the whole debate is all the effort that is spent trying to win the argument could be spent in makeing the discussion irrelavent. We live in one he most advanced and wealthy nations in the world. There is no reason for women to not have acces to birth control and education so less women have to be confronted with having to make the decision.

Wazzel, do you have a penis? If so, you're opinion is irrelevant according to Bucky.
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