What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
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01-04-2014, 12:40 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(01-04-2014 07:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 11:34 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I now sit down and write the law.

Am I to give the police the legal obligation to interfere after conception, after consciousness or at some other point?

How am I to decide?

You call in some experts, and have some hearings. "After conception" and "at conception" is a meaningless phrase. The experts won't agree on what that even means. No one here can tell us what it means, exactly. The "potential" (human) condition is just as much "potential in place" during the PROCESS of any number of DNA replications, as it is "potential" BEFORE the gametes encounter each other. 'Conception" is no longer a useful term. The majority of human zygotes spontaneously abort before implantation in the uterine wall. http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/sno...oid=919582
Yes, I'm really just a good looking figurehead with a debonaire smile. So I call in some experts.
My Doctor tells me that it is much safer for a person to have an abortion in a proper regulated clinic than in an underground hidden establishment.
My Economist tells me about the cost of performing abortions vs the cost of unwanted children.
Someone tells me about the concept of "potential human" vs "actual human" but I disregard that as new age mumbo jumbo, much like the idea that personhood is sacred.

(01-04-2014 07:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If "you" are the government, you ask yourself, "What compelling state interest" (the standard established in Loving v Virginia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia ) is there to be involved in this AT ALL ?
My vice president reminds me that my job is to essentially ensure the safety and stability of society and that we have too much on our plate to worry about individual people or groups moral beliefs.
One of the many woman on the board reminds me that neither Chas nor Mary have much vested interest in the affairs of a pregnant woman, that if Chas or Mary find themselves pregnant that they can choose to keep it if that is their belief. But she tells me that since it is the mother and the family that are affected by the decision then I should leave that decision to them rather than have the government interfere.
My head of social affairs tells me that society will be fine with abortions taking place, there will be no upheaval, no riots, no feuds.

I think the solution is obvious:
Government to stay out of it, the mother to decide.

I then ask the team, at what point do government need to interfere?
My doctor says that the baby is viable outside the womb from 24 weeks with a 50% survival rate. That this means when the baby comes out alive and kicking that some more effort would be needed in order to kill the baby.

I asked "But if the baby is out then why the need to kill the baby?"

The doctor stared at me as if I was a moron. "The purpose of the abortion is to kill the unborn. The mother doesn't want to look after the baby. That's why she is having the abortion."

My head of social affairs speaks up. "If you kill the baby outside of the womb then some people may become violent. I expect LostAndInsecure as well as Smercury44 and few of their friends will be knocking at your door carrying meat cleavers, battle axes and rusty pliers looking to dismember you bit by bloody bit."

My project manager speaks up. "Well, if you set the limit at say 20 weeks then that gives the parents sufficient time to consider the pro's and cons and this mitigates the risk of social unrest and it also serves a purpose of a well defined milestone such that the stakeholders are incentivised into making their go/no go decision prior to that key milestone."

Me - OK, lets set it at 20 weeks, that way I get to keep my important bits.
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01-04-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
I am a male, not my choice, women have their reproductive rights so if they want one so be it.

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01-04-2014, 03:55 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
Another variable is that birth control does not always work. So sometimes even when a woman is doing everything she can (apart from not having sex of course) to not get pregnant, sometimes even that can let you down.

'It's not a lie, if you believe it.' - George Costanza
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04-04-2014, 06:32 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(31-03-2014 09:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(30-03-2014 09:58 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  I really find it weird that people act as if a fetus and a baby are different things. One does not simply become a baby at birth. If a fetus is just a clump of cells as some say, then I am just a larger clump of cells or a giant baby.

Clearly you have NO CLUE about embryology. There are many phases and developmental milestones in the formation of a zygote, a fetus, and a baby. Your over-simplification does not serve you. Why is it people with NO CLUE about biological processes engage in discussions in which they have NO competence at all ?

Did it ever occur to you that embryology, like all science, can only be discovered by those who had ancestors which all were allowed to be born and live long enough to reproduce?

My current project is explaining why many things in this world are irrelevant to me.
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04-04-2014, 06:35 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(04-04-2014 06:32 AM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 09:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Clearly you have NO CLUE about embryology. There are many phases and developmental milestones in the formation of a zygote, a fetus, and a baby. Your over-simplification does not serve you. Why is it people with NO CLUE about biological processes engage in discussions in which they have NO competence at all ?

Did it ever occur to you that embryology, like all science, can only be discovered by those who had ancestors which all were allowed to be born and live long enough to reproduce?

Really? That's your argument? Prolife because what if scientists would have been aborted then we wouldn't know anything? -_-
Worst debating ever trophy for you.

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05-04-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
The lack of good arguments on the side of pro-lifers is only made up for by their use of the word 'baby' when it comes to a by definition parasitic life form. Frankly, it disgusts me when they get stumped by someone who supports reproductive rights and just use trigger words to fuck with people's emotions and convince them into support their disgusting view that violates women's rights.
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06-04-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(05-04-2014 09:33 PM)TokyoRoyalty Wrote:  The lack of good arguments on the side of pro-lifers is only made up for by their use of the word 'baby' when it comes to a by definition parasitic life form. Frankly, it disgusts me when they get stumped by someone who supports reproductive rights and just use trigger words to fuck with people's emotions and convince them into support their disgusting view that violates women's rights.

A true pro-lifer needs no "arguments". The goal is not to argue, fight, or debate. I do not think that any decision is made without some emotional bias. The emotional reasons for why people promote abortion is something I cannot understand without talking about it. It seems to me that some people care more about proving that they are right than they care about making a difference.

I am just as disappointed by the callousness of some atheists as I was the christians.

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06-04-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(06-04-2014 09:23 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 09:33 PM)TokyoRoyalty Wrote:  The lack of good arguments on the side of pro-lifers is only made up for by their use of the word 'baby' when it comes to a by definition parasitic life form. Frankly, it disgusts me when they get stumped by someone who supports reproductive rights and just use trigger words to fuck with people's emotions and convince them into support their disgusting view that violates women's rights.

A true pro-lifer needs no "arguments". The goal is not to argue, fight, or debate. I do not think that any decision is made without some emotional bias. The emotional reasons for why people promote abortion is something I cannot understand without talking about it. It seems to me that some people care more about proving that they are right than they care about making a difference.

I am just as disappointed by the callousness of some atheists as I was the christians.

That has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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06-04-2014, 10:43 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(06-04-2014 09:23 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 09:33 PM)TokyoRoyalty Wrote:  The lack of good arguments on the side of pro-lifers is only made up for by their use of the word 'baby' when it comes to a by definition parasitic life form. Frankly, it disgusts me when they get stumped by someone who supports reproductive rights and just use trigger words to fuck with people's emotions and convince them into support their disgusting view that violates women's rights.

A true pro-lifer needs no "arguments". The goal is not to argue, fight, or debate. I do not think that any decision is made without some emotional bias. The emotional reasons for why people promote abortion is something I cannot understand without talking about it. It seems to me that some people care more about proving that they are right than they care about making a difference.

I am just as disappointed by the callousness of some atheists as I was the christians.
Callousness? Fuck you okay. I have lost a "child" that I was waiting for. That I loved, that I wanted. Tell me if you've ever known the pain if having something growing inside you that could one day be yours be your baby and then watch it die. Tell be if you've felt that heartache. Don't call me callous because that, I am not. But I have lived in nightmares that most people can only imagine and if I were to find myself back in that nightmare and pregnant I would have an abortion. A fetus has no desire to live an feels no pain in dying. Babies do, however, suffer because they're born into misery. Into situations where they don't belong. Into families that don't want or love them or even into families that simply cannot care for them. Who are you to call me callous? You are callous to the brave women who choose to abort because they cannot bare the idea of bringing a baby into a situation where it will suffer.

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Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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07-04-2014, 12:23 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(06-04-2014 10:43 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(06-04-2014 09:23 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  A true pro-lifer needs no "arguments". The goal is not to argue, fight, or debate. I do not think that any decision is made without some emotional bias. The emotional reasons for why people promote abortion is something I cannot understand without talking about it. It seems to me that some people care more about proving that they are right than they care about making a difference.

I am just as disappointed by the callousness of some atheists as I was the christians.
Callousness? Fuck you okay. I have lost a "child" that I was waiting for. That I loved, that I wanted. Tell me if you've ever known the pain if having something growing inside you that could one day be yours be your baby and then watch it die. Tell be if you've felt that heartache. Don't call me callous because that, I am not. But I have lived in nightmares that most people can only imagine and if I were to find myself back in that nightmare and pregnant I would have an abortion. A fetus has no desire to live an feels no pain in dying. Babies do, however, suffer because they're born into misery. Into situations where they don't belong. Into families that don't want or love them or even into families that simply cannot care for them. Who are you to call me callous? You are callous to the brave women who choose to abort because they cannot bare the idea of bringing a baby into a situation where it will suffer.

So you mean to say that your reasoning is that killing them sooner prevents suffering that they would experience later? This makes sense. It is precisely the reason that I choose to remain a virgin. In my case, I am convinced that the unborn do feel pain, which is why I favor anything that prevents conception at all.

If you really do believe what you are saying, then it does not make you callous. I don't agree with you but at least you said something new. I want to thank for for sharing your pain.

I could never understand what it is like to be a woman or to be pregnant and then have a child die. I don't want anyone to experience that or to label everyone as callous. I simply meant that some people wanted to fight so badly that they entirely missed the point.

I think most people on this forum are here because of pain. I have experienced my own pain in life which leads me to understand and prevent as much of it as possible. I am an atheist because I do not see a God to prevent suffering. I feel like I want to do what I can, but not too many people seem to offer more than "fuck you".

My current project is explaining why many things in this world are irrelevant to me.
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