What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
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12-01-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

-- Max

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I am not afraid to go out of it that way.
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12-01-2014, 07:27 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2014 07:31 PM by Baruch.)
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
Bucky Ball
Quote:A clump of cells with no neural tube is not a "baby". It's a "potential" baby.
Your use of the word "baby" has emotional overtones, which are unnecessary.


I agree with the above, especially after a debate with an anti-abortionist who has little baby fetus dolls and was claiming abortion is murder. SHe really annoyed me because she was pretending to argue for human rights of the baby when she was really preaching jesus gospel. Judaism & Islam actually allow abortions usually only before 40 days and especially if the mothers life is at risk after 40 days - i.e mums life trumps baby (and this comes from well established theistic traditions not some secular naturalist)
The 40 days comes from some mystical idea about the soul entering @ 40 days - whilst none of this can be proven from science - on a practical perspective it means a rape victim can have an abortion immediately afterwards - in accordance with theism of these traditions.

From secular view what really matter in the abortion debate is when consciousness starts not when an egg is fertilized because this is just a potential clump of cells. We don't know exactly when consciousness awareness begins but its likely around 24 - 28 weeks when the Thalamo-cortico-thalamic circuits are developed.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ness-arise
Even then the baby may have awareness but is not going to have reflexive self awareness & self identity as an autonomous person which occur much later - after birth !!! So there is no line one can draw and define "this is a collection of cells" and "this is a person".

IMO 1st trimester seems reasonable to presume the collection of cells is only a potential for future personhood (with all the rights and attributes we consider for a conscious person not yet established I,e only in potential).

The issue with those who believe abortion is murder and treat fertilization as the beginning of a baby person is confusing potential & actual person.

Consider this - if I persuade a couple to have protected sex for a year (or contraceptive) - have I committed murder ??? It could be that this couple COULD HAVE POTENTIALLY HAD CHILDREN WHICH I PREVENTED ! Surely I've killed these potential offspring ???
So whats the difference between a few million sperm & an egg one moment followed by their fusing a few minutes later with one of those sperm + Egg ??? Both are just collections of cells with only future potential ? You cannot legislate murder for these potential possibilities.

Conclusion: There should be no problem with abortion in the 1st trimester.
Later abortions should always be allowed if the mothers life is at risk. Whilst I am pro-choice I believe that later abortions should be discouraged because they cause psychological harm to the mother as abortions are psychologically traumatic and it doesn't reflect well on society having late abortions just because people have unprotected sex and its convenient to go to an abortion clinic - this has the hallmarks of a cruel, careless society.
As for finding out a fetus has critical abnormalities this should be up to the mother (and family/doctors etc discussion) Forcing people to bring up severely disabled children doesn't help anyone including the child.
True a severely disabled child may appreciate life later and be cared for & loved but this goes back to the potential issue discussed above. By postponing having a child for a year there could be many "potentially" happy loved healthy children ! but its hardly going to be murder if I persuade a couple not to have kids for a year.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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12-01-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(12-01-2014 07:13 PM)nooneofconsequence Wrote:  If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

-- Max

Lol reminds me of this
[Image: 31ef30cdc74f9a0c2e02416d8c21c3bc_zps450c6ec2.jpg]
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12-01-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(27-01-2010 11:08 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  There has to be a line somewhere. A collection of cells is not a human being, but no one can come up with a line between "cells" and "baby" that satisfies all parties. Our current limit - the first trimester, I think - is about as good as it's going to get.

First trimester is not the limit where I live. Viability is the limit her and I think that is the best limit. Anytime after 19 weeks you have to have a test done to see if the "baby" is viable outside the womb. If it is viable you cannot have an abortion. If it is not viable then you can.
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12-01-2014, 08:14 PM
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
This thread was aborted 4 years ago!

Onward, my faithful steed!
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12-01-2014, 08:46 PM
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(12-01-2014 08:14 PM)Crulax Wrote:  This thread was aborted 4 years ago!

Sorry! It was the first thing that came up when I clicked View New Posts.

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13-01-2014, 06:54 AM
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(12-01-2014 06:16 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 06:15 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  How are unregistered persons allowed to post?

It's because of how old this thread is. They were former members that have since been unregistered.

Oh! I didn't realize this thread was old. Sorry about that! I'm on my mobile so it just popped up as new.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-01-2014, 07:43 AM
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(13-01-2014 06:54 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 06:16 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It's because of how old this thread is. They were former members that have since been unregistered.

Oh! I didn't realize this thread was old. Sorry about that! I'm on my mobile so it just popped up as new.

Someone necro-posted and pulled it up from the depths. Not your fault.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-01-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(12-01-2014 07:27 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 07:13 PM)nooneofconsequence Wrote:  If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

-- Max

Lol reminds me of this
[Image: 31ef30cdc74f9a0c2e02416d8c21c3bc_zps450c6ec2.jpg]


Literally no better answer to the question. Way to go Smercury!!

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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13-01-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: What Are Your Thinking On Abortion ?
What's with all this necro bigotry? Newbs might want to add their thoughts and they shouldn't be shamed for it.


Fuckin' necro bigots.Dodgy

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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