What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
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07-04-2014, 01:01 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(07-04-2014 12:23 AM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  
(06-04-2014 10:43 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Callousness? Fuck you okay. I have lost a "child" that I was waiting for. That I loved, that I wanted. Tell me if you've ever known the pain if having something growing inside you that could one day be yours be your baby and then watch it die. Tell be if you've felt that heartache. Don't call me callous because that, I am not. But I have lived in nightmares that most people can only imagine and if I were to find myself back in that nightmare and pregnant I would have an abortion. A fetus has no desire to live an feels no pain in dying. Babies do, however, suffer because they're born into misery. Into situations where they don't belong. Into families that don't want or love them or even into families that simply cannot care for them. Who are you to call me callous? You are callous to the brave women who choose to abort because they cannot bare the idea of bringing a baby into a situation where it will suffer.

So you mean to say that your reasoning is that killing them sooner prevents suffering that they would experience later? This makes sense. It is precisely the reason that I choose to remain a virgin. In my case, I am convinced that the unborn do feel pain, which is why I favor anything that prevents conception at all.

If you really do believe what you are saying, then it does not make you callous. I don't agree with you but at least you said something new. I want to thank for for sharing your pain.

I could never understand what it is like to be a woman or to be pregnant and then have a child die. I don't want anyone to experience that or to label everyone as callous. I simply meant that some people wanted to fight so badly that they entirely missed the point.

I think most people on this forum are here because of pain. I have experienced my own pain in life which leads me to understand and prevent as much of it as possible. I am an atheist because I do not see a God to prevent suffering. I feel like I want to do what I can, but not too many people seem to offer more than "fuck you".
People are sensitive about this subject and a little "fuck you" now and again is waranted. I will apologize though, I'm sorry for saying fuck you. I just hate to be called callous or heartless by people who are anti abortion. I realize you were not addressing me specifically.
Just like in everything else, I try my best to believe what scientist with studies and evidence say. Which is that a fetus does not feel pain before 24 weeks.
Let's say they're wrong though. An abortion takes about 5 minutes. I would argue that five minutes of pain in a barely (if at all) sentient being is preferable to a lifetime of suffering at the hands of parents who don't want you.
I admire any woman who is brave enough to do whatever it takes to prevent bearing an unwanted child, or a child who will go Hungry and/or neglected. I have special place in my heart for women who are 'trapped' in abusive relationships and are strong enough to have an abortion instead of sharing their pain with a baby who never asked to be conceived let alone born.

I have laughed, in bitterness and agony of heart, at the contrast between what I seem and what I am!
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07-04-2014, 01:56 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(07-04-2014 01:01 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(07-04-2014 12:23 AM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  So you mean to say that your reasoning is that killing them sooner prevents suffering that they would experience later? This makes sense. It is precisely the reason that I choose to remain a virgin. In my case, I am convinced that the unborn do feel pain, which is why I favor anything that prevents conception at all.

If you really do believe what you are saying, then it does not make you callous. I don't agree with you but at least you said something new. I want to thank for for sharing your pain.

I could never understand what it is like to be a woman or to be pregnant and then have a child die. I don't want anyone to experience that or to label everyone as callous. I simply meant that some people wanted to fight so badly that they entirely missed the point.

I think most people on this forum are here because of pain. I have experienced my own pain in life which leads me to understand and prevent as much of it as possible. I am an atheist because I do not see a God to prevent suffering. I feel like I want to do what I can, but not too many people seem to offer more than "fuck you".
People are sensitive about this subject and a little "fuck you" now and again is waranted. I will apologize though, I'm sorry for saying fuck you. I just hate to be called callous or heartless by people who are anti abortion. I realize you were not addressing me specifically.
Just like in everything else, I try my best to believe what scientist with studies and evidence say. Which is that a fetus does not feel pain before 24 weeks.
Let's say they're wrong though. An abortion takes about 5 minutes. I would argue that five minutes of pain in a barely (if at all) sentient being is preferable to a lifetime of suffering at the hands of parents who don't want you.
I admire any woman who is brave enough to do whatever it takes to prevent bearing an unwanted child, or a child who will go Hungry and/or neglected. I have special place in my heart for women who are 'trapped' in abusive relationships and are strong enough to have an abortion instead of sharing their pain with a baby who never asked to be conceived let alone born.

You might apologise but I won't chandlerklebs you are ignorant and proud of it. Your stance is not based in fact and you want to make everyone else do what you say simply because you "feel" like stuff happens the way it does in your head. Fuck off, get educated and learn the actual facts before spouting off. Oh and then try and figure out why your ill thought out opinion should be forced on everyone.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

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07-04-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(07-04-2014 12:23 AM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  In my case, I am convinced that the unborn do feel pain, which is why I favor anything that prevents conception at all.

And you are wrong. For the first six months, there is no complete nervous system or brain, so there can be no pain.

Quote:I think most people on this forum are here because of pain. I have experienced my own pain in life which leads me to understand and prevent as much of it as possible. I am an atheist because I do not see a God to prevent suffering. I feel like I want to do what I can, but not too many people seem to offer more than "fuck you".

If it is true that "most people on this forum are here because of pain" (which I rather doubt) then it's probably to escape the pain of having to deal with ignorant, morally retarded, religious shitheads.

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07-04-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(07-04-2014 01:01 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  People are sensitive about this subject and a little "fuck you" now and again is waranted. I will apologize though, I'm sorry for saying fuck you. I just hate to be called callous or heartless by people who are anti abortion. I realize you were not addressing me specifically.
Just like in everything else, I try my best to believe what scientist with studies and evidence say. Which is that a fetus does not feel pain before 24 weeks.
Let's say they're wrong though. An abortion takes about 5 minutes. I would argue that five minutes of pain in a barely (if at all) sentient being is preferable to a lifetime of suffering at the hands of parents who don't want you.
I admire any woman who is brave enough to do whatever it takes to prevent bearing an unwanted child, or a child who will go Hungry and/or neglected. I have special place in my heart for women who are 'trapped' in abusive relationships and are strong enough to have an abortion instead of sharing their pain with a baby who never asked to be conceived let alone born.

Your reasoning makes sense that 5 minutes of pain is preferable to a lifetime of suffering. Since you are wanting to prevent pain, this makes you a feeling atheist as well as a thinking atheist.

I am glad you know that I was certainly not targeting you. I am just annoyed that I am mocked constantly for my ignorance. Sometimes people care only about "facts" which are not helping anyone. I would not have even found this website if it was not for the compassion of Seth Andrews. Thinking and feeling are both relevant. If they can be used together effectively, the whole world would be changed.

My current project is explaining why many things in this world are irrelevant to me.
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07-04-2014, 12:16 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(07-04-2014 11:17 AM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  Your reasoning makes sense that 5 minutes of pain is preferable to a lifetime of suffering. Since you are wanting to prevent pain, this makes you a feeling atheist as well as a thinking atheist.

I am glad you know that I was certainly not targeting you. I am just annoyed that I am mocked constantly for my ignorance. Sometimes people care only about "facts" which are not helping anyone. I would not have even found this website if it was not for the compassion of Seth Andrews. Thinking and feeling are both relevant. If they can be used together effectively, the whole world would be changed.

You are what is wrong with this country! No your feelings are not as important as fact! You are demonstrably wrong about this and have decided to ignore reality rather than update your position. FUCK YOU! You are as bad as the worst of the theists that Seth is against. You are a bad person.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

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07-04-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(07-04-2014 11:17 AM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  
(07-04-2014 01:01 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  People are sensitive about this subject and a little "fuck you" now and again is waranted. I will apologize though, I'm sorry for saying fuck you. I just hate to be called callous or heartless by people who are anti abortion. I realize you were not addressing me specifically.
Just like in everything else, I try my best to believe what scientist with studies and evidence say. Which is that a fetus does not feel pain before 24 weeks.
Let's say they're wrong though. An abortion takes about 5 minutes. I would argue that five minutes of pain in a barely (if at all) sentient being is preferable to a lifetime of suffering at the hands of parents who don't want you.
I admire any woman who is brave enough to do whatever it takes to prevent bearing an unwanted child, or a child who will go Hungry and/or neglected. I have special place in my heart for women who are 'trapped' in abusive relationships and are strong enough to have an abortion instead of sharing their pain with a baby who never asked to be conceived let alone born.

Your reasoning makes sense that 5 minutes of pain is preferable to a lifetime of suffering. Since you are wanting to prevent pain, this makes you a feeling atheist as well as a thinking atheist.

I am glad you know that I was certainly not targeting you. I am just annoyed that I am mocked constantly for my ignorance. Sometimes people care only about "facts" which are not helping anyone. I would not have even found this website if it was not for the compassion of Seth Andrews. Thinking and feeling are both relevant. If they can be used together effectively, the whole world would be changed.

Facts do help people. If you cannot see the facts, if you refuse to acknowledge reality, then your feelings do nothing but hurt people.

You should think about that before you spread your feelings all over someone else's pain.

You're the type of person who thinks in feelings if that makes sense.
So let me try to explain it in a way that makes sense to you.
When you go around spewing your feelings without facts you hurt people. You hurt women who have had abortions by trying to make them feel guilt for things that you don't understand. Spreading this kind if ignorance has the potential to hurt a lot of people.

It takes a quick study to learn scientifically proven facts about a fetus and abortion. It takes just a dash of sanity to believe in those facts and just a little bit of reason to adjust your feelings to accommodate reality.

I have laughed, in bitterness and agony of heart, at the contrast between what I seem and what I am!
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07-04-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(07-04-2014 04:02 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  You're the type of person who thinks in feelings if that makes sense.
So let me try to explain it in a way that makes sense to you.
When you go around spewing your feelings without facts you hurt people. You hurt women who have had abortions by trying to make them feel guilt for things that you don't understand. Spreading this kind if ignorance has the potential to hurt a lot of people.

It takes a quick study to learn scientifically proven facts about a fetus and abortion. It takes just a dash of sanity to believe in those facts and just a little bit of reason to adjust your feelings to accommodate reality.

I don't want to make the women who have had abortions guilty. I want to see a world where women are no longer blamed for things that are out of their control. I don't see how my ignorance is hurting anyone or how your facts can help anyone.

I can learn more facts but my feelings will not adjust to new facts. I lose both my emotions and reason forever when I die. I don't see the point in being "scientific".

My current project is explaining why many things in this world are irrelevant to me.
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07-04-2014, 05:17 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
Hey chandlerklebs
As I see it these are the key points regarding your position.
(30-03-2014 04:30 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  [1]I am opposed to abortion for many non-religious reasons.
[2]I feel like I should have the right not to pay for it.
[3]I think that abortion MUST be talked about.
[4]A moral person cannot ignore something as big as abortion. It involves killing, lying, and stealing.
[1] I understand, accept and respect that you have your own reasons to oppose abortion.
[2] I totally understand and respect why you don't want your own taxes to go towards funding abortions given your position in [1]
[3] I think it is great if people can talk about abortions, but it seems mostly dialogue on this topic is not possible. Too many people hold on too strongly to their own position. Most people (it seems to me) do not want to talk about abortion, most people want to ridicule, bash, abuse, ostracise people whom have an opposing view to themselves.
[4] Given that moral beliefs are subjective i.e. your own personal opinion then I understand and respect that you believe this topic to have a very high importance for you. (Many people are passionate on this topic).

Quote:I want to find a way to prevent abortions but since laws have no meaning, I am still searching for a better way.
Clearly you don't want to force people to conform to your own moral beliefs on this topic.
I applaud that you are looking for alternatives.
Pro-lifers and pro-choices can come together in searching for ways to reduce abortions e.g.
Sex education,
availability of contraceptives,
improved education and reduced poverty in general
decent adoption programs etc
(07-04-2014 04:48 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  I can learn more facts but my feelings will not adjust to new facts. I lose both my emotions and reason forever when I die. I don't see the point in being "scientific".
If you are driven towards a goal of reducing abortions via non legislative means, then all the power to you. Again, I think there are approaches towards this social problem that both pro-lifers and pro-choicers can work towards.
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07-04-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(07-04-2014 04:48 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  
(07-04-2014 04:02 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  You're the type of person who thinks in feelings if that makes sense.
So let me try to explain it in a way that makes sense to you.
When you go around spewing your feelings without facts you hurt people. You hurt women who have had abortions by trying to make them feel guilt for things that you don't understand. Spreading this kind if ignorance has the potential to hurt a lot of people.

It takes a quick study to learn scientifically proven facts about a fetus and abortion. It takes just a dash of sanity to believe in those facts and just a little bit of reason to adjust your feelings to accommodate reality.

I don't want to make the women who have had abortions guilty. I want to see a world where women are no longer blamed for things that are out of their control. I don't see how my ignorance is hurting anyone or how your facts can help anyone.

I can learn more facts but my feelings will not adjust to new facts. I lose both my emotions and reason forever when I die. I don't see the point in being "scientific".

If you can neither see how ignorance hurts, nor how facts help people, then you are blind and there is no reason for me to continue this conversation.

I have laughed, in bitterness and agony of heart, at the contrast between what I seem and what I am!
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07-04-2014, 07:32 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2014 10:00 AM by Chas.)
RE: What is Your Thinking On Abortion ?
(07-04-2014 04:48 PM)chandlerklebs Wrote:  
(07-04-2014 04:02 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  You're the type of person who thinks in feelings if that makes sense.
So let me try to explain it in a way that makes sense to you.
When you go around spewing your feelings without facts you hurt people. You hurt women who have had abortions by trying to make them feel guilt for things that you don't understand. Spreading this kind if ignorance has the potential to hurt a lot of people.

It takes a quick study to learn scientifically proven facts about a fetus and abortion. It takes just a dash of sanity to believe in those facts and just a little bit of reason to adjust your feelings to accommodate reality.

I don't want to make the women who have had abortions guilty. I want to see a world where women are no longer blamed for things that are out of their control. I don't see how my ignorance is hurting anyone or how your facts can help anyone.

I can learn more facts but my feelings will not adjust to new facts. I lose both my emotions and reason forever when I die. I don't see the point in being "scientific".

That is sad. I pity you, but I don't believe you thought that one through.

If you discovered that you wife was cheating on you (new fact), wouldn't your feelings change?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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