What is a proof?
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23-08-2014, 07:53 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(22-08-2014 06:41 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 04:28 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Now we are into something, this is absolutely true Thumbsup
It is called "Direct Proof"

No. I cover all forms of mathematical proof in the above section. You define a mathematical system and you work within that mathematical system to more fully describe it. I think there is no mathematical proof that falls outside this definition. Would you care to present one?

(22-08-2014 04:28 AM)Muslim Wrote:  True, but this is only one type of scientific proofs (proof by induction)

No, this is scientific verification of hypotheses. This is the scientific method. It is not proof by induction.

Proof by induction is a mathematical proof:
* You prove that a property holds for the first element of a sequence
* You prove that if a property holds for a given element in the sequence it must necessarily hold the next element in the sequence
* By induction, you can conclude that the property holds for all elements of the sequence

The scientific method has some connection to inductive reasoning but it is not an inductive proof or any kind of mathematical proof. For every hypothesis there is an infinite number of alternative hypotheses that make the same set of verified predictions: Assume you have a hypothesis that perfectly predicts all available results of experiments capable of falsifying its predictions. Take that hypothesis and add two unknown opposing but perfectly balanced forces. Now you have a new hypothesis that makes the same inerrant predictions. That is why we choose the hypothesis with the least burden of unfounded assumption to include in our scientific knowledge. If we accepted any claim that makes inerrant predictions we would have to believe many contradictory claims.

(22-08-2014 04:28 AM)Muslim Wrote:  there are other types (methods) of proofs:
deduction
Proof by countraposition
Contradictions
Perfect induction (exhaustion)
Construction
Statistical

No. All of these are mathematical proofs that fall under my description above. You define a mathematical system and you prove that a certain property holds or does not hold for that system.
I'm talking about "formal" or logical proofs
where it can be mathematical or scientific
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23-08-2014, 08:22 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2014 08:40 AM by Chas.)
RE: What is a proof?
(23-08-2014 07:53 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 06:41 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  No. I cover all forms of mathematical proof in the above section. You define a mathematical system and you work within that mathematical system to more fully describe it. I think there is no mathematical proof that falls outside this definition. Would you care to present one?


No, this is scientific verification of hypotheses. This is the scientific method. It is not proof by induction.

Proof by induction is a mathematical proof:
* You prove that a property holds for the first element of a sequence
* You prove that if a property holds for a given element in the sequence it must necessarily hold the next element in the sequence
* By induction, you can conclude that the property holds for all elements of the sequence

The scientific method has some connection to inductive reasoning but it is not an inductive proof or any kind of mathematical proof. For every hypothesis there is an infinite number of alternative hypotheses that make the same set of verified predictions: Assume you have a hypothesis that perfectly predicts all available results of experiments capable of falsifying its predictions. Take that hypothesis and add two unknown opposing but perfectly balanced forces. Now you have a new hypothesis that makes the same inerrant predictions. That is why we choose the hypothesis with the least burden of unfounded assumption to include in our scientific knowledge. If we accepted any claim that makes inerrant predictions we would have to believe many contradictory claims.


No. All of these are mathematical proofs that fall under my description above. You define a mathematical system and you prove that a certain property holds or does not hold for that system.
I'm talking about "formal" or logical proofs
where it can be mathematical or scientific

Formal and logical proofs are not the same things.

Clearly it is you who need to be schooled in proof, not us.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(23-08-2014 07:53 AM)Muslim Wrote:  I'm talking about "formal" or logical proofs
where it can be mathematical or scientific

It seems like you don't know what you are talking about at all, as you are unable to explain any of the concepts you cite and do not use those concepts correctly. Perhaps you have been learning from unreliable sources?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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23-08-2014, 08:42 AM
RE: What is a proof?
I wanna go to Ayatollah school. They don't have to actually do much work do they ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-08-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(23-08-2014 08:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I wanna go to Ayatollah school. They don't have to actually do much work do they ?

You will need to spend a lot of your time being pissed-off about one thing or another. So there's that.
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23-08-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(23-08-2014 07:36 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 04:38 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  And that is precisely my point. If logic were 'absolute' and existed as part of the fabric of reality then you would not be able to have logical paradoxes.

The fact that even a single logical paradox exists demonstrates this.
I'm not sure what do you mean, but a logical paradox doesn't exist

A logical paradox does exist. I have just showed you one. Look there exists one on post 38. It even has a physical existence if you count the magnetic bits on people's hard drives and patterns of electrical charge in RAM and neurons.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid630006


(23-08-2014 07:36 AM)Muslim Wrote:  (formal) Logic is how are brains work, they are just a few very simple rules

Wrong.

Citations are required from you if you are going to persist with this line of argument. Not least you specifying what those few very simple rules actually are.

At the very most dendritic trees can be used to encode logical functions but that ignores how neurons work, secondary messengers, neuromodulation, synaptic drift, hebbian learning and habituation.
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23-08-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: What is a proof?
The "proof" is in the pudding Tongue

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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23-08-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(23-08-2014 10:26 AM)Nurse Wrote:  The "proof" is in the pudding Tongue

I wouldn't know.

There is no spoon.
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23-08-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 07:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  This is an educational thread where we read, link and discuss acceptable theories and concepts regarding Logic, Proofs and science

What is intelligence?
What is logic?
What are the types of proofs?
Scientific Vs. Logical proofs

Why do senior Muslim clerics believe that someone should be beheaded who decides that they don't want to be a Muslim after using the intelligence, logic and types of proof given to them by the all merciful, all compassionate Allah?
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23-08-2014, 05:51 PM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2014 09:18 AM by joben1.)
RE: What is a proof?
Muslim, I think it is time for this "proof" of yours, don't you?

Come on, be a sport...I'm feeling a little down and haven't had a good laugh in a while. You see, some good can come from your beliefs for a change.
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