What is a proof?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-08-2014, 05:19 PM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 07:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  This is an educational thread where we read, link and discuss acceptable theories and concepts regarding Logic, Proofs and science

What is intelligence?
What is logic?
What are the types of proofs?
Scientific Vs. Logical proofs

Acceptable to whom...as a theist I suspect that you're gonna have a hard job convincing us infidels...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2014, 12:20 AM
RE: What is a proof?
Aw man, did we already scare him off? Consider

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2014, 01:24 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 05:19 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  This is an educational thread where we read, link and discuss acceptable theories and concepts regarding Logic, Proofs and science

What is intelligence?
What is logic?
What are the types of proofs?
Scientific Vs. Logical proofs

Acceptable to whom...as a theist I suspect that you're gonna have a hard job convincing us infidels...
Acceptable to you, a proof will work only if we have agreed premises
that's why I ask you first, what is a fact for you?
How do you consider a proof as valid?

Many Atheists play the "Idiot game"; they pretend that they are totally stupid and don't understand or accept anything, to evade God existence.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2014, 01:33 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 07:10 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  It is when you set up a system with standards and control groups and independent peer review. Quality control. You plug a claim into the established formula, test it with control groups, take your findings, hand them over to others in your field who have no horse in the race and see if they come up with the same data. If they do, you are onto something, if they don't, then you rethink your claim and set up and data.

Scientific method is not a person, it is a system. When used properly it is a way to filter out personal bias and settle competing claims. Ethical scientists love to be proven wrong and do not look at is bad to be wrong, they look at it as a learning experience.
Science doesn't prove facts, it observes what is happening then gives a level of confidence about generalizing it.
Even if science proves something, it can turn to be not general in the future
(e.g. Newton laws of motions)
that's why logical proofs are much stronger than scientific proofs, but unfortunately we cannot prove everything with just logic.

Do you accept scientific or statistical outcomes as a proof?
In other words; if God is most likely, will you accept him?

Quote:Proof that god claims exists only means humans claim them. Proof that religion exists only proves people like them. They do not have the same universal testing and quality control scientific method does. Religion and god belief simply amounts to "It feels good, other people like it, my false perceptions allow me to swallow it".

Religion and god belief will never hold a candle to the knowledge scientific method has given humanity.
those are assertions, do you have any basis for that?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 07:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:22 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Evidences are often used in science not Logic

Usually science is based on observations which can be considered as evidences if strong enough

Problem: You cannot logic a god into existence, you still need evidence to support it.

Logic is, by itself, insufficient for meeting the burden of proof required of theists and their gods.
Maybe, but I'll try to use minimum (basis) evidence for that.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2014, 01:45 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 01:33 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Science doesn't prove facts, it observes what is happening then gives a level of confidence about generalizing it.
Even if science proves something, it can turn to be not general in the future
(e.g. Newton laws of motions)
that's why logical proofs are much stronger than scientific proofs, but unfortunately we cannot prove everything with just logic.

So we only have "a level" of confidence about the Earth being round or, say, the Earth revolving around the Sun.

Science does prove facts. If it didn't, it wouldn't be able to make the accurate predictions it makes.

Unless, you know, we live on the back of a sea turtle and everything we know is a lie.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes undergroundp's post
20-08-2014, 01:56 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 08:03 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  What is logic?

Logic is a conceptual tool invented and used by humans which allows them to reason about the world in order to better understand it and predict events. Logic uses the values of True and False which do not exist in the real world. Fuzzy logic for example is an alternative conceptual tool using degrees of truth and falseness.
In the same way maths has the integer values 0, 1, 2 etc. These symbols only represent states of the real world.

If you wiped out the human race then logic and maths would no longer exist.
Sorry, I don't agree with you
Absolute true or false exists in the real world even without human

Basic Logic rules are always true, (Even God cannot change them)
for example two mutually exclusive propositions are propositions that logically cannot be true at the same time
i.e. something cannot exist and not exist at the same time

Quote:There are environments and situations in the real world which cannot be adequately described by our current systems of logic and maths and which either require alternative tools or extensions to our existing tools instead. For example, emergent systems, the singularity of a black hole etc.
Cannot be described by science but not by logic!

Quote:The limitations of maths and logic is evident by the number of different forms developed to overcome specific limitations. For example geometry, statistics, Bayesian inference, fuzzy logic, cellular automata, the theory of computation etc.
You need to read a bit about the difference between logic and science
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2014, 02:01 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 08:32 AM)Ray Butler Wrote:  Proof is where something works, this can go on to explain why something works, and that takes established points of reference into account in providing likelihood of it being true.

If we observe phenomena with as much detail as we can we have information to work on theories, but generally a logical proof is when a description strengthens what we gain from its function.
This is scientific proof, not a logical one

Logical proofs, doesn't need observations, just base facts

for example
All humans drink water
John is human

So John drinks water

This proof is not based on any observations, it is merely logical proof that used some rules of Logic
(The base fact can be an observation, but not always)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2014, 02:16 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 09:47 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  This is an educational thread where we read, link and discuss acceptable theories and concepts regarding Logic, Proofs and science

What is intelligence?
What is logic?
What are the types of proofs?
Scientific Vs. Logical proofs

I may be wrong here, but you seem to be trying to set-up your own definitions of logic, proof, and science. I suspect once you've established the proper loopholes (rules of evidence) to allow your theories to seem logical, you'll then give us your "proof" of the existence of god.
Just a guess. Wink
Yes You have a good point here.
Yes, but not totally

I'll try to use your own words (what you agree on) and use only a sub-set of the general definitions of each term

So I'll use a very basic/simple definition
and will use only what I need in the proof
for simplicity and to avoid un-necessary arguments about irrelevant matters

Note also that a proof is a realm by itself, i.e. there is no need to argue anything outside its realm
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-08-2014, 02:18 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 02:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  This is scientific proof, not a logical one

Logical proofs, doesn't need observations, just base facts

for example
All humans drink water
John is human

So John drinks water

This proof is not based on any observations, it is merely logical proof that used some rules of Logic
(The base fact can be an observation, but not always)

At work.

Hello again.Smile Just sticking my oar in, trying to keep up with the thread as best as possible.

So, in regards to the above post. If things as stated don't rely on observations. What is a 'John', what is 'Water' and what is 'Drinking'.

Sorry if my point/question is coming across obtusely. I suppose I'm possibly trying to show that even the language you(we) are using has/have pre-built (Is that even the right term?) meaning(s).

Much cheers to all.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: