What is a proof?
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20-08-2014, 02:20 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 04:02 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  This is an educational thread where we read, link and discuss acceptable theories and concepts regarding Logic, Proofs and science

What is intelligence?
What is logic?
What are the types of proofs?
Scientific Vs. Logical proofs

You received some great answers, and I'll just add that the only acceptable 'proof' to support any theory and/or concept, would be proof that is verifiable, testable, and objective. Secular, and not religious. In other words, one's 'holy book' is not proof of ''God.''
I agree; except (Testable) as this applies only to sets
i.e. set of events or members where it applies
God is only one
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20-08-2014, 02:24 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(19-08-2014 11:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:22 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Evidences are often used in science not Logic

Usually science is based on observations which can be considered as evidences if strong enough

Your understanding of the methods of science appear to be flawed.
this thread is not a debate about my views!
Why do you think it is wrong?

Science
Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge"[1]) is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.[2][3][4] In an older and closely related meaning, "science" also refers to a body of knowledge itself, of the type that can be rationally explained and reliably applied.

Note the words "About the universe", science is only about observations
Sci-fiction is about imaginations
Hallucination is about non-sense

Are you into drugs Big Grin
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20-08-2014, 02:27 AM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2014 02:32 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 01:33 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:10 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  It is when you set up a system with standards and control groups and independent peer review. Quality control. You plug a claim into the established formula, test it with control groups, take your findings, hand them over to others in your field who have no horse in the race and see if they come up with the same data. If they do, you are onto something, if they don't, then you rethink your claim and set up and data.

Scientific method is not a person, it is a system. When used properly it is a way to filter out personal bias and settle competing claims. Ethical scientists love to be proven wrong and do not look at is bad to be wrong, they look at it as a learning experience.
Science doesn't prove facts, it observes what is happening then gives a level of confidence about generalizing it.
Even if science proves something, it can turn to be not general in the future
(e.g. Newton laws of motions)
that's why logical proofs are much stronger than scientific proofs, but unfortunately we cannot prove everything with just logic.

Thanks for showing that, even after having what the scientific method is explained to you, you ignore that in favor of parroting your ignorant bullshit. But no, how about you keep telling us what your iman tells you science is, instead of listening to what scientist's actually say science is. Facepalm

Also, Newton's Laws of Motion are still entirely accurate within their limits. They break down at the extreme scales of speed and size (requiring relativity and quantum mechanics respectively), but they're so reliable and accurate that we were able to predict to within a second the moment the Voyager space probe left our solar system decades after it was launched from Earth.

(20-08-2014 01:33 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Do you accept scientific or statistical outcomes as a proof?
In other words; if God is most likely, will you accept him?

No, because arguments are not evidence. But if you want a statistical analysis of the probability of a god, Dr. Richard Carrier has already used Baye's Theorem and beat you to the punch. I don't imagine you'll like the statistical probability of god.







(20-08-2014 01:33 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:10 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Proof that god claims exists only means humans claim them. Proof that religion exists only proves people like them. They do not have the same universal testing and quality control scientific method does. Religion and god belief simply amounts to "It feels good, other people like it, my false perceptions allow me to swallow it".

Religion and god belief will never hold a candle to the knowledge scientific method has given humanity.
those are assertions, do you have any basis for that?

Disease is caused by pathogens, not demonic possession.

The Earth revolves around the Sun, and is not at the center of the Universe.

The Earth is not flat, support upon 4 pillars and covered by a solid firmament to keep out the 'waters above'.

The Universe is billions of years old.

Life was not created, it has evolved over millions upon millions of years.

Intercessory prayer has no noticeable effect in the real world.

Pi is not a round number.



These were just off the top of my head, but I can go on if you really want me to dig you a deeper ditch to lie in. Drinking Beverage

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20-08-2014, 02:31 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 01:36 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Problem: You cannot logic a god into existence, you still need evidence to support it.

Logic is, by itself, insufficient for meeting the burden of proof required of theists and their gods.
Maybe, but I'll try to use minimum (basis) evidence for that.

We just had a Christian here who tried the 'minimal facts' approach. His problem? All of his so called 'facts' were actually lies that had been parroted to him in church, he was entirely ignorant of the history of his own religion, and the current state of modern biblical studies and archaeology.

I doubt you'll be any more impressive. Drinking Beverage

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20-08-2014, 02:44 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 02:27 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Thanks for showing that, even after having what the scientific method is explained to you, you ignore that in favor of parroting your ignorant bullshit. But no, how about you keep telling us what your iman tells you science is, instead of listening to what scientist's actually say science is.
Proving God must not be based on any belief or religion!

Quote:Also, Newton's Laws of Motion are still entirely accurate within their limits.
This is exactly what I meant, we though it is general but turned out to be "within their limits"



Quote:No, because arguments are not evidence. But if you want a statistical analysis of the probability of a god, Dr. Richard Carrier has already used Baye's Theorem and beat you to the punch. I don't imagine you'll like the statistical probability of god.


Thanks for the information
but my proof will not be statistical, as statistics is even weaker than science!



Quote:Disease is caused by pathogens, not demonic possession.

The Earth revolves around the Sun, and is not at the center of the Universe.

The Earth is not flat, support upon 4 pillars and covered by a solid firmament to keep out the 'waters above'.

The Universe is billions of years old.

Life was not created, it has evolved over millions upon millions of years.

Intercessory prayer has no noticeable effect in the real world.

Pi is not a round number.

These were just off the top of my head, but I can go on if you really want me to dig you a deeper ditch to lie in. Drinking Beverage
This is not the topic of this thread, if you want answers say "PLEASE" and open a thread for each topic

and another advice, don't be so Angry and try to use your mind as a change Big Grin
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20-08-2014, 02:56 AM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2014 05:31 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 02:44 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 02:27 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Thanks for showing that, even after having what the scientific method is explained to you, you ignore that in favor of parroting your ignorant bullshit. But no, how about you keep telling us what your iman tells you science is, instead of listening to what scientist's actually say science is.
Proving God must not be based on any belief or religion!

So are you going to actually provide evidence in support of the supernatural then? Because that's the first thing you'll need to do to convince any of us.



(20-08-2014 02:44 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 02:27 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, Newton's Laws of Motion are still entirely accurate within their limits.
This is exactly what I meant, we though it is general but turned out to be "within their limits"

And who or what discovered those limits by pushing them? Science and scientists, not holy men, holy books, or religion.



(20-08-2014 02:44 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 02:27 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No, because arguments are not evidence. But if you want a statistical analysis of the probability of a god, Dr. Richard Carrier has already used Baye's Theorem and beat you to the punch. I don't imagine you'll like the statistical probability of god.


Thanks for the information
but my proof will not be statistical, as statistics is even weaker than science!

Yep, you're an idiot. Science is the absolute best way that humans have ever devised for determine what is, and is not, true to the best of our abilities. The internet works because of science, the computer you are using works because of science, the electricity to power both works because of science. To call that 'weak' does nothing than belie your own astonishing ignorance.

Also, we did notice how you were all on board for 'statistical outcomes' if they happened to make your god more 'probable'. Now that statistical analysis doesn't favor your position, all of a sudden you're not so keen on them. Funny how that works, isn't it? Laughat


(20-08-2014 02:44 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 02:27 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Disease is caused by pathogens, not demonic possession.

The Earth revolves around the Sun, and is not at the center of the Universe.

The Earth is not flat, support upon 4 pillars and covered by a solid firmament to keep out the 'waters above'.

The Universe is billions of years old.

Life was not created, it has evolved over millions upon millions of years.

Intercessory prayer has no noticeable effect in the real world.

Pi is not a round number.

These were just off the top of my head, but I can go on if you really want me to dig you a deeper ditch to lie in. Drinking Beverage
This is not the topic of this thread, if you want answers say "PLEASE" and open a thread for each topic

and another advice, don't be so Angry and try to use your mind as a change Big Grin

No, how about you stop being a little bitch and trying to dodge answers you don't like? Consider

(20-08-2014 01:33 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 07:10 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Proof that god claims exists only means humans claim them. Proof that religion exists only proves people like them. They do not have the same universal testing and quality control scientific method does. Religion and god belief simply amounts to "It feels good, other people like it, my false perceptions allow me to swallow it".

Religion and god belief will never hold a candle to the knowledge scientific method has given humanity.
those are assertions, do you have any basis for that?

I answered your question with an easy half dozen I can pull right off the top of my head. Only someone so entirely ignorant of their own staggering ineptitude could possibly ask the question and not expect that response; making you a very poor apologist indeed.

Those of us here are very well versed in using our minds and studying the evidence (with a few exceptions, Luminon comes to the forefront), it's why we are atheists.

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20-08-2014, 03:37 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 01:24 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Many Atheists play the "Idiot game"; they pretend that they are totally stupid and don't understand or accept anything, to evade God existence.


What they are actually doing is asking for strict definitions to stop the theist hiding behind ambiguous terms that can hide many logical inconsistencies. Most theists or people who believe in woo can't even define what they believe in. You can only properly start to evaluate the likelihood of something once you know what you are meant to evaluate.
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20-08-2014, 04:02 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 01:56 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Sorry, I don't agree with you
Absolute true or false exists in the real world even without human

Basic Logic rules are always true, (Even God cannot change them)
for example two mutually exclusive propositions are propositions that logically cannot be true at the same time

Rules that humans have created. And let me show you an example of two mutually exclusive propositions being logically true at the same time. For example:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid588257

Two mutually exclusive claims:
  • Two mutually exclusive claims cannot be true simultaneously by definition otherwise they would not be mutually exclusive - True
  • Two mutually exclusive claims can be true simultaneously - Also True


Contrived artificial example of two mutually exclusive claims that are simultaneously true:
  • The word "heterological" is heterological - True
  • The word "heterological" is autological. - Also True

Autological (also known as homological) = a word that describes itself (e.g., the word "short" is short, "noun" is a noun, "English" is English, "pentasyllabic" has five syllables, "word" is a word, "sesquipedalian" is a long word)

Heterological = a word that does not describe itself.


"Heterological" is not a word that describes itself, therefore is heterological, but this means that it is autological, but if "heterological" is autological that means it's heterological and is therefore not a word that describes itself and therefore is autological ... ad infinitum.

Conclusion: Logic is an artificial system that is a useful tool but is not a universal truth.




(20-08-2014 01:56 AM)Muslim Wrote:  You need to read a bit about the difference between logic and science


I have and you are the one who does not understand the different roles. Take the field of Artificial Life for example. This is a relatively new computational field which tries to understand life as it could be. But the same applies for any form of computer simulation.

I could create a computer simulation of some kind of flocking behaviour observed in the real world using just a few rules. Does this mean that this is how the flocking behaviour occurs in the real world? No. All it means is that the hypothesis is logically consistent. Whatever experiments carried out using an Artificial Life experiment must then be validated with real world observations if they are successful.

You can use logic to prove a mathematical equation, maths being an abstract set of rules invented by humans. You can prove a computer program but a computer program is again an artificial construct and is just applied maths and logic.

For example, you could prove a program to be absolutely correct and it will still not work because a local thunderstorm or spike in the electricity supply corrupts the internal memory.

You cannot use logic to prove a real world phenomenon, only to disprove a hypothesis. The scientific method is used to gather evidence for or against hypotheses.

When it comes to saying anything about the real world, logic is used for disproving. Not proving.
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20-08-2014, 04:10 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 02:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Logical proofs, doesn't need observations, just base facts

for example
All humans drink water
John is human

So John drinks water

So all you need is an example of a human being that cannot drink water to show that your proof is false. For example one born with a deformity and does not have a mouth. For the few days that the baby is alive it is still human. Or maybe a human adult that has been wounded in much the same way and has a saline drip attached. Either way it does not drink yet is still human.

This is the problem with logic when trying to describe real world phenomena. It is too rigid. This is why classical artificial intelligence failed.
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20-08-2014, 04:56 AM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2014 05:42 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 01:33 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Even if science proves something, it can turn to be not general in the future
(e.g. Newton laws of motions)
that's why logical proofs are much stronger than scientific proofs, but unfortunately we cannot prove everything with just logic.

Wrong. Logically Relativity and Uncertainty are completely illogical, yet they have been proven to be true. Logical proofs are necessary, but not sufficient. As Dr. Sean Carroll pointed out to WLCraig, there are many logical systems that do not obtain. You statement is self-refuting. First you say logical proofs are stronger than scientific proofs, then you say you cannot prove everything with logic. So what exactly do you have left ? Let me guess. The Quran. Weeping

(20-08-2014 01:33 AM)Muslim Wrote:  In other words; if God is most likely, will you accept him?

Define "god". (God is a she, BTW).


(20-08-2014 01:33 AM)Muslim Wrote:  those are assertions, do you have any basis for that?

If you needed heart surgery, would you just pray ? There's your answer, genius.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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