What is a proof?
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20-08-2014, 05:27 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 02:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 08:32 AM)Ray Butler Wrote:  Proof is where something works, this can go on to explain why something works, and that takes established points of reference into account in providing likelihood of it being true.

If we observe phenomena with as much detail as we can we have information to work on theories, but generally a logical proof is when a description strengthens what we gain from its function.
This is scientific proof, not a logical one

Logical proofs, doesn't need observations, just base facts

for example
All humans drink water
John is human

So John drinks water

This proof is not based on any observations, it is merely logical proof that used some rules of Logic
(The base fact can be an observation, but not always)

Yes, always. All facts are ultimately based on our observations.

Neither philosophy nor revelation provides any facts.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2014, 05:28 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 02:20 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 04:02 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  You received some great answers, and I'll just add that the only acceptable 'proof' to support any theory and/or concept, would be proof that is verifiable, testable, and objective. Secular, and not religious. In other words, one's 'holy book' is not proof of ''God.''
I agree; except (Testable) as this applies only to sets
i.e. set of events or members where it applies
God is only one

The claims of gods actions (events) are many. Are these not testable? Can they not be falsified by science and logic?
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20-08-2014, 05:31 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 02:20 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 04:02 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  You received some great answers, and I'll just add that the only acceptable 'proof' to support any theory and/or concept, would be proof that is verifiable, testable, and objective. Secular, and not religious. In other words, one's 'holy book' is not proof of ''God.''
I agree; except (Testable) as this applies only to sets
i.e. set of events or members where it applies
God is only one

That is called 'presupposition'. You have yet to demonstrate the existence of any god, let alone yours, but you assume its existence.

Utter logical failure, dude.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2014, 05:33 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 02:24 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 11:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your understanding of the methods of science appear to be flawed.
this thread is not a debate about my views!
Why do you think it is wrong?

Science
Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge"[1]) is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.[2][3][4] In an older and closely related meaning, "science" also refers to a body of knowledge itself, of the type that can be rationally explained and reliably applied.

Note the words "About the universe", science is only about observations
Sci-fiction is about imaginations
Hallucination is about non-sense

Are you into drugs Big Grin

Because you said 'usually', probably trying to leave the door open for some woo or another.

And, go fuck yourself. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2014, 05:36 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 02:44 AM)Muslim Wrote:  This is not the topic of this thread, if you want answers say "PLEASE" and open a thread for each topic

and another advice, don't be so Angry and try to use your mind as a change Big Grin

You do not dictate how the forum operates. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2014, 05:47 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 05:28 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 02:20 AM)Muslim Wrote:  I agree; except (Testable) as this applies only to sets
i.e. set of events or members where it applies
God is only one

The claims of gods actions (events) are many. Are these not testable? Can they not be falsified by science and logic?
Unfortunately NO
Because God created the universe, and allowed us to either believe in him or not, so it is choice for us to do/believe bad or right

It is a matter of our understanding/belief to assign an action to (a) God or not

Imagine if we can all see God in the sky; if somebody do wrong he sends a spark to burn him instantaneously
Human will not deserve a reward on good actions, God must be (somewhat Hidden) so we can deserve his rewards

Another example (not typical)
Let's assume that you hired a maid and want to test her if she is honest or a thief
The best test is to leave some money in the house and go out (maybe for several times) if she is honest she will not take the money
This test will be totally ridiculous if you stayed with her all time

Gods' action are clues about his existence, but not solid proofs
Even when I give you the proof, I'll not spoon-feed it to you, you will always have the choice to accept or reject God
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20-08-2014, 05:51 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 05:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  You do not dictate how the forum operates. Drinking Beverage
I'm the King of this thread Wink

Obey Bowing or create your own thread Big Grin
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20-08-2014, 05:58 AM
RE: What is a proof?
Hey Mr. Mussy,
I guarantee you that no matter what you attempt here, it shall be refuted.

The problem with your "logic" bullshit, is that ANY false premise, whether stated (overt) or silent, can invalidate any logical argument. I guarantee you that we can/shall find false silent and overt premises for any god argument you can possibly cook up.

For example :

The president of the United States must be younger than 35.
Elizabeth Taylor is president of the United States.
So, Elizabeth Taylor must be younger than 35.

If Elizabeth Taylor is president of the United States, then Elizabeth Taylor must be younger than 35.
Elizabeth Taylor is president of the United States.
So, Elizabeth Taylor must be younger than 35.

Both are examples of correct logic, but invalid premises. For logic to be true, ALL the premises, both spoken and silent, must be true.

Your proposed"god is more probable than not" argument is an example of a well known fallacy, thus totally invalid :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability

Logical validity guarantees a true conclusion, ONLY if all the premises (spoken and unspoken), are true. Ommiting a false silent premise is both bad luck and bad logic. I have a feeling you're not going to be all that lucky. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-08-2014, 06:00 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 04:10 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 02:01 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Logical proofs, doesn't need observations, just base facts

for example
All humans drink water
John is human

So John drinks water

So all you need is an example of a human being that cannot drink water to show that your proof is false. For example one born with a deformity and does not have a mouth. For the few days that the baby is alive it is still human. Or maybe a human adult that has been wounded in much the same way and has a saline drip attached. Either way it does not drink yet is still human.
I'm not specific about this proof
but yes, one way to refute a proof is to bring (just one) example that contradicts with premises or conclusion

The other way is to show that statement N doesn't lead to statement N+1

Quote:This is the problem with logic when trying to describe real world phenomena. It is too rigid. This is why classical artificial intelligence failed.
Logic does/can not describe any phenomena, it will only deduct facts from others.
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20-08-2014, 06:03 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 06:00 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 04:10 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  So all you need is an example of a human being that cannot drink water to show that your proof is false. For example one born with a deformity and does not have a mouth. For the few days that the baby is alive it is still human. Or maybe a human adult that has been wounded in much the same way and has a saline drip attached. Either way it does not drink yet is still human.
I'm not specific about this proof
but yes, one way to refute a proof is to bring (just one) example that contradicts with premises or conclusion

The other way is to show that statement N doesn't lead to statement N+1

Quote:This is the problem with logic when trying to describe real world phenomena. It is too rigid. This is why classical artificial intelligence failed.
Logic does/can not describe any phenomena, it will only deduct facts from others.

It's "deduce" and facts are phenomena.
Try harder.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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