What is a proof?
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22-08-2014, 04:09 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 08:01 AM)shmmie6689 Wrote:  Muslim here's is my questions for you.
WHO IS YOUR "GOD?"
WHAT IS YOUR "PROOF?"


and guys don't ridicule me for this because yet again I am new here. But i have always believed that with out evidence you don't have logic and without logic you can't have proof. And from what I'm hearing you don't have any of the above mentioned. All you have done in this discussion is (in my eyes) put your ideals on replay by making excuses about what is real and what is fictional and to me it seem like a complete waste of your time....

You have yet to present a single piece of your "non existing" evidence. Why because you don't have any!!
I didn't present any proof (yet)
I'm just trying to prepare you to discuss it
I didn't even propose my view about logic, this thread is just collecting information (from you) about logic, proofs, science, etc.

so don't rush yourself in opposing me, (till now there is nothing to be opposed)
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22-08-2014, 04:13 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(20-08-2014 10:24 PM)alegzac54 Wrote:  I think logic is acting accordingly to what one observes . Not only that but acting on what makes sense to avoid becoming insane.
Yes, but this is very general

Quote:Logic is what triggers our brain.
Absolutely, need to formalize that

Quote:I also believe logic is what drives good and bad actions.
Not really!
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22-08-2014, 04:13 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(22-08-2014 04:02 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 05:28 AM)pablo Wrote:  The claims of gods actions (events) are many. Are these not testable? Can they not be falsified by science and logic?
By Logic yes
but Science! I doubt
because God created laws that govern the universe
Science can get clues but not solid, rough proof

Everything in your reply is a presupposed assertion that god exists.
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22-08-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(22-08-2014 04:05 AM)Muslim Wrote:  Here is some rules to think about this thread:

Are you a moderator? No? Then you don't get to make any rules.

Hate the belief, love the believer.
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22-08-2014, 04:28 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(21-08-2014 06:27 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Muslim,

You have asked what proof is, and the answer to that is fairly simple.

In mathematics we define logical systems in terms of a set of starting axioms. A proof within a logical system is based on the axioms of that system and shows using those axioms as a starting point that a particular proposition is true or is false within that logical system. A different set of axioms will result in a different set of true and false propositions. Propositions that are true or false in a given logical system may or may not correspond to true or false propositions in the real world depending on how consistent those axioms are with our reality. A logical system itself can be shown to be incoherent if a proof can be made that true is equal to false.

That is to say, mathematical proofs cannot be said to prove something in the real world unless we can also show that the axioms used match the real world - or how well they do so.
Now we are into something, this is absolutely true Thumbsup
It is called "Direct Proof"

Quote:In order to apply mathematical thinking to the real world we need to use a scientific approach. That is,
1. Come up with ideas about the real world
2. Identify ideas that make testable predictions about the real world. Label ideas that make testable predictions "hypotheses", and discard other ideas as unfalsifiable - ie outside the scope of science to be able to verify.
3. Identify predictions between hypotheses that are mutually exclusive
4. Perform experiments to identify which (if any) of a given set of mutually exclusive predictions are inerrantly reliable. Discard of modify all hypotheses that fail to make inerrant predictions.
5. Identify the simplest hypotheses that have so far stood up to substantial experimentation that have the smallest burden of assumption built into them and have so far proven inerrant as our "scientific knowledge"
6. Continue to include our scientific knowledge in steps 3-5 to continually refine that knowledge and increase our ability to make unerringly accurate predictions about the real world in new contexts, with greater accuracy, and with greater precision over time.
True, but this is only one type of scientific proofs (proof by induction)

Quote:... or do you intend to propose a more reliable path to truth and knowledge than mathematical proof and scientific knowledge? If so, please do describe it.
there are other types (methods) of proofs:
deduction
Proof by countraposition
Contradictions
Perfect induction (exhaustion)
Construction
Statistical
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22-08-2014, 04:38 AM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2014 04:47 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: What is a proof?
(22-08-2014 03:59 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 04:02 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Autological (also known as homological) = a word that describes itself (e.g., the word "short" is short, "noun" is a noun, "English" is English, "pentasyllabic" has five syllables, "word" is a word, "sesquipedalian" is a long word)

Heterological = a word that does not describe itself.
Also wrong, this is called a logical paradox, it is simply cannot exist in reality, just in words.

And that is precisely my point. If logic were 'absolute' and existed as part of the fabric of reality then you would not be able to have logical paradoxes.

The fact that even a single logical paradox exists demonstrates this.

Logic is a representation of reality. We can also use language for this. We can use logic to create paradoxes in much the same way that we can use words to create non sequiturs.

Neither logic nor words underlie reality (despite people believing that God spoke the universe into existence).


(22-08-2014 03:59 AM)Muslim Wrote:  So to proof something by logic we will need some observations (facts)
then use logic to drive the conclusion
Note that the proof will only work for people who accept the premises


The proof also only works if people accept that the proposed mapping between the real world and the logical representation of the real world is both complete and accurate.

For example, Lord Kelvin published mathematical calculations that the age of the Earth was between 20 million and 400 million years. For some of his followers this was mathematical proof but not all scientists were convinced because it did not match all the evidence that had been collected.

The problem was that no one knew about radioactive decay.

The scientific method is an iterative process whereby evidence is gathered, hypotheses are created and tested through logic and calculations before then being compared to the real world.

What you are failing to recognise is that logic is just a single step within an iterative cycle rather than the final step. It cannot prove anything by itself because it is dependent upon how much evidence has been gathered. All logic can do is create hypotheses or to disprove hypotheses.

Garbage in garbage out.


(By the way it's "to prove" not "to proof" )
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22-08-2014, 04:56 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(22-08-2014 04:02 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 05:28 AM)pablo Wrote:  The claims of gods actions (events) are many. Are these not testable? Can they not be falsified by science and logic?
By Logic yes
but Science! I doubt
because God created laws that govern the universe
Science can get clues but not solid, rough proof

That is presupposition. You do not understand or practice correct logic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2014, 04:57 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(22-08-2014 04:05 AM)Muslim Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 05:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  That is called 'presupposition'. You have yet to demonstrate the existence of any god, let alone yours, but you assume its existence.

Utter logical failure, dude.
You have no clue about what are you writing
You are just angry

Here is some rules to think about this thread:
It is not about proving anything, so don't assume things
It is not even a debate about my view, it is just about what people think about proofs, logic and science
I sometimes write as I'm in an Atheist position, trying to just oppose me will make you look even more stupid

It is still presupposition, your childish tantrum notwithstanding. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2014, 04:58 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(22-08-2014 04:28 AM)Muslim Wrote:  True, but this is only one type of scientific proofs (proof by induction)

Wrong, L'll Muzzy Wuzzy.
When you get all big and go to school, teacher will explain that "Proof by induction" is an example of logical reasoning. It's not even considered "proof" formally.
Inductive reasoning (as opposed to deductive reasoning) is reasoning in which the premises seek to supply strong evidence for (not absolute proof of) the truth of the conclusion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

It's not "scientific". At All. Clearly you know nothing about science. Science is a method. The word "proof" does not appear in the steps of the method.

So.
Now that you've demonstrated you haven't a clue what you're pretending you know enough about to say anything about, maybe, slink back to your hole, and try to come up with Plan B.
If we need "preparing" for anything, you patronizing ass hole, we'll be sure and let you know.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-08-2014, 05:22 AM
RE: What is a proof?
(22-08-2014 04:02 AM)Muslim Wrote:  By Logic yes
but Science! I doubt
because God created laws that govern the universe
Science can get clues but not solid, rough proof

What exactly are these laws? If they govern the universe then surely by now we must at least know one or two laws that exist.

You are suggesting that they are laws of logic.

Demonstrate how these laws help us to better explain and understand reality.
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