What is/are not "one" or "many"
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21-09-2013, 08:51 AM
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 08:44 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  "Dark matter" is a placeholder for "we don't know wtf is going on, other than something is going on." Thumbsup

I was at a lecture on dark matter just the other day. Q&A devolved into a fairly steady mantra of "we don't know".

We do know it exists. We do know it interacts gravitationally but not electromagnetically. Evidence from galactic collisions makes that pretty darn certain, and does tend to falsify variable-gravity theories.

Dark matter.
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21-09-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 07:50 AM)Mike Wrote:  Do you think there are "colours" outside of the electromagnetic spectrum? Tongue

Colour is a property of the electromagnetic spectrum. More to the point it is a property of a portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.

(uh, unless you count subatomic colour charge, I guess. which has nothing at all to do with colour. the guys who found it just wanted easy to remember terms...)

So, the answer is no. By definition.

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21-09-2013, 08:54 AM
 
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 08:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 07:49 AM)Mike Wrote:  We know that there can be only just "one" dark matter in our observable universe, and we also know that there are "many" types of matter and energy in our observable universe. But what are the things that are not "one" or "many"? I think there are such things in QM, what do you think?

*Yeah of course I know this is a funny question Dodgy, but I really wanna know.

Sorry, I still don't understand what it is you are getting at.

And, no, we don't know that there can only be one dark matter. We don't even know if dark matter is matter.

So we can't say that there is only one dark matter and there are multiple dark matter, isn't it?

What other things that we can't say "there can be only one of this kind of thing in observable universe", and even can't say "there are many kind of this thing all over this observable universe"?
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21-09-2013, 08:58 AM
 
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 08:54 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 07:50 AM)Mike Wrote:  Do you think there are "colours" outside of the electromagnetic spectrum? Tongue

Colour is a property of the electromagnetic spectrum. More to the point it is a property of a portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.

(uh, unless you count subatomic colour charge, I guess. which has nothing at all to do with colour. the guys who found it just wanted easy to remember terms...)

So, the answer is no. By definition.

So at subatomic level particle there can be such things that are not one or many, right? What do you think? IIRC subatomic particles also don't have any spatio temporal characteristics thus those particles can exist without space and time.
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21-09-2013, 09:06 AM
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 08:58 AM)Mike Wrote:  So at subatomic level particle there can be such things that are not one or many, right?

... not really. I've never seen anything characterised as such. Where have you gotten that idea?

(21-09-2013 08:58 AM)Mike Wrote:  IIRC subatomic particles also don't have any spatio temporal characteristics thus those particles can exist without space and time.

The size of a wave packet isn't well-defined, but it still has dimension. Likewise, interaction has duration - not least because transition between states cannot be instantaneous due the non-commutativity of energy and time operators...

I recommend some popular science books. Your questions seem very fundamental. I'm sure there must be a good primer on quantum theory for a general audience out there somewhere...

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21-09-2013, 09:17 AM
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 08:54 AM)Mike Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 08:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  Sorry, I still don't understand what it is you are getting at.

And, no, we don't know that there can only be one dark matter. We don't even know if dark matter is matter.

So we can't say that there is only one dark matter and there are multiple dark matter, isn't it?

What other things that we can't say "there can be only one of this kind of thing in observable universe", and even can't say "there are many kind of this thing all over this observable universe"?

You've completely lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about.

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21-09-2013, 09:25 AM
 
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 09:06 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 08:58 AM)Mike Wrote:  So at subatomic level particle there can be such things that are not one or many, right?

... not really. I've never seen anything characterised as such. Where have you gotten that idea?

I am just asking because who know if there are really such things in QM. Then I keep hearing that monotheists and deists, pandeists/pantheists, panentheists/panendeists and the like said there can only be one actual infinity, which they called as "God". How could they know that there can only be one actual infinity? Then the polytheists said there are multiple kind of God/god. So I'm started to think what things that are not one or many, if there are really such things like that then that things are greater than God for sure.

(21-09-2013 09:06 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 08:58 AM)Mike Wrote:  IIRC subatomic particles also don't have any spatio temporal characteristics thus those particles can exist without space and time.

The size of a wave packet isn't well-defined, but it still has dimension. Likewise, interaction has duration - not least because transition between states cannot be instantaneous due the non-commutativity of energy and time operators...

I recommend some popular science books. Your questions seem very fundamental. I'm sure there must be a good primer on quantum theory for a general audience out there somewhere...

So there are no subatomic particles that can indeed exist without space and time?
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21-09-2013, 09:28 AM
 
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 09:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 08:54 AM)Mike Wrote:  So we can't say that there is only one dark matter and there are multiple dark matter, isn't it?

What other things that we can't say "there can be only one of this kind of thing in observable universe", and even can't say "there are many kind of this thing all over this observable universe"?

You've completely lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Nevermind, just ignore that question anyway.
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21-09-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 09:25 AM)Mike Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 09:06 AM)cjlr Wrote:  ... not really. I've never seen anything characterised as such. Where have you gotten that idea?

I am just asking because who know if there are really such things in QM. Then I keep hearing that monotheists and deists, pandeists/pantheists, panentheists/panendeists and the like said there can only be one actual infinity, which they called as "God".

Yabut. Don't listen to them people. Thumbsup

Quote:Assuming the axiom of choice holds, the law of trichotomy holds for cardinality, so we have the following definitions.

* Any set with cardinality less than that of the natural numbers is said to be a finite set.
* Any set that has the same cardinality as the set of the natural numbers is said to be a countably infinite set.
* Any set with cardinality greater than that of the natural numbers is said to be uncountable.

~from http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopi...=19&t=3108

The "woo" I believe in, is tao. It is not a dichotomy between "countable and uncountable infinity," it is a dichotomy between simultaneity and sequence. And to process simultaneity is to be insane.*

*assuming I live another coupla decades, science is gonna help me prove that shit. Thumbsup

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21-09-2013, 11:12 AM
 
RE: What is/are not "one" or "many"
(21-09-2013 10:07 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(21-09-2013 09:25 AM)Mike Wrote:  I am just asking because who know if there are really such things in QM. Then I keep hearing that monotheists and deists, pandeists/pantheists, panentheists/panendeists and the like said there can only be one actual infinity, which they called as "God".

Yabut. Don't listen to them people. Thumbsup

Quote:Assuming the axiom of choice holds, the law of trichotomy holds for cardinality, so we have the following definitions.

* Any set with cardinality less than that of the natural numbers is said to be a finite set.
* Any set that has the same cardinality as the set of the natural numbers is said to be a countably infinite set.
* Any set with cardinality greater than that of the natural numbers is said to be uncountable.

~from http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopi...=19&t=3108

The "woo" I believe in, is tao. It is not a dichotomy between "countable and uncountable infinity," it is a dichotomy between simultaneity and sequence. And to process simultaneity is to be insane.*

*assuming I live another coupla decades, science is gonna help me prove that shit. Thumbsup

So we can say uncountable infinity are not "one" and "many" right? Based on your statement, if there are indeed countable infinities so perhaps this is the most people are referring to, because there are some people who said that there can be only one infinity but the others said there are multiple infinities. But we can't say the same to the uncountable infinities because it is uncountable. But aren't countable and uncountable infinity only deal with mathematics? How about the actual infinity?
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