What is faith?
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12-02-2013, 11:22 AM
RE: What is faith?
(12-02-2013 11:16 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:I'm pretty sure we agree that there is no evidence of any gods and that it is extremely unlikely that there are any.
SO circular again; are we really needing to go back to the fact that 97% of humanity is not Atheist? Really? And spare my the "proof by majority fallacy" horse manure, please!
It's not a smoking gun for the existence of God but you HAVE to take the OVERWHELMING opinion of man that man agrees with the Bible (whether individuals know it or not) than man uniquely pursues an invisible God as evidence that either there is/may be a God OR as as evidence that man is insane and OVERWHELMINGLY deluded and not to be trusted in any matter great or small.
PleaseJesus says, PLEASE already. Give it up!


Your figure of 97% is too high, but it doesn't really matter. People's beliefs aren't proof of anything.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-02-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: What is faith?
(11-02-2013 12:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But are you really unaware that Jesus spoke about hidden knowledge that was only revealed to His disciples?
That is interesting and weirdly cool.
But irrelevant to the discussion.
****
I recently have been trying to help someone understand something and I advised:

If someone believes or thinks something, then the door is open to… understanding, new ideas, reasoning, change, etc.,.
If someone has faith in or just knows something, then there is no door.

One must understand this basic precept of logic in order to even have a discussion or argue any issue. Other wise, little is accomplished.

PJ, you seem to view faith, via an inerrant bible, and an understanding of Jesus as unalterable - in other words, you just know it. You have no door.

Belief thinks = discussion...
Faith knows = no discussion.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-02-2013, 11:42 AM
RE: What is faith?
(12-02-2013 11:16 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  SO circular again; are we really needing to go back to the fact that 97% of humanity is not Atheist? Really? And spare my the "proof by majority fallacy" horse manure, please!
It's not a smoking gun for the existence of God but you HAVE to take the OVERWHELMING opinion of man that man agrees with the Bible (whether individuals know it or not) than man uniquely pursues an invisible God as evidence that either there is/may be a God OR as as evidence that man is insane and OVERWHELMINGLY deluded and not to be trusted in any matter great or small.
PleaseJesus says, PLEASE already. Give it up!
Except that you made up that number entirely. Here are some actual statistics.

Anyway, that's besides the point. The number of people who share a common belief is irrelevant to the validity of said belief. What matters is whether or not the available evidence supports it.

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12-02-2013, 12:03 PM
RE: What is faith?
I didn't make up that number. Your Wikipedia citation of people without a religion does not mean they are Atheists, however! Vosur, how many born again Christians have told you they are preaching a relationship, not a religion?! I myself would say I am not a member of an organized religion...
Quote:Anyway, that's besides the point. The number of people who share a common belief is irrelevant to the validity of said belief. What matters is whether or not the available evidence supports it.
Sometimes your quote is correct. In the case of a jury presiding over the fate of the accused, we hope you are correct--that the evidence will convict their conscience. In the secular matter of a court case, people have been known to let the available evidence support their vote and sometimes, not. And if we're talking about voting, the last election shows a lot of stupidity on the parts of Repubs, Dems and others!
No, no, no--all the posing about "There is no evidence for God" is better stated in many different ways because the Atheist, like the Christian, is judging the pool (or lack of) evidence. For one obvious example, I can affirm there is no evidence there is a God, and I can equally affirm there is no smoking gun that proves there isn't a God. There is just data that is open to interpretation. You would admit that if Jesus appeared to you in bodily form, there would be a possible interpretation that you need to return to Christianity and a possible interpretation that it was an hallucination.
More specifically, how do you all know we aren't in a Matrix where a divine being is purposely reducing the amount of available evidence to see who is... oh wait, the Bible SAYS that is the case. So that not FAITH would be the divider but PRIDE and LOVE. Thank you.
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12-02-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: What is faith?
(12-02-2013 12:03 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I didn't make up that number.
Is that so? Please provide your source(s), then.

(12-02-2013 12:03 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Your Wikipedia citation of people without a religion does not mean they are Atheists, however! Vosur, how many born again Christians have told you they are preaching a relationship, not a religion?! I myself would say I am not a member of an organized religion...
See above. If you disagree with the validity of my data, feel free to cite your own.

(12-02-2013 12:03 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Sometimes your quote is correct.
No, it's always correct. Arguing that X is true because a large amount of people think that it's true is always fallacious reasoning because the conclusion of such an argument does not necessarily follow from its premises. Furthermore, this kind of thinking has been shown to be wrong throughout history time and time again. For example, contrary to the (once?) widely shared belief that humans were spontaneously created by one or more divine entities, we now know that it actually took a long time until we evolved into our present state.

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12-02-2013, 12:27 PM
RE: What is faith?
Wow, my numbers are way out of date! I stand corrected, thanks, sincerely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic...statistics
Quote:No, it's always correct. Arguing that X is true because a large amount of people think that it's true is always fallacious reasoning because the conclusion of such an argument does not necessarily follow from its premises.
I understand. I'm not arguing that God exists because most people say He does. That would be fallacious. I am saying two things:
1. We all can cite where we hope people go by strength of evidence rather than by bias. Most people we know say they are objective in these matters and are not.
2. You are an example of such bias with the end of your post. If the "we" is people, homo sapiens, there is data you are interpreting as evidence that man evolved over a long period rather than being specially created. I'm open-minded here, however, I'm also aware that theories like punctuated equilibrium explain gaps in our knowledge and the fossil record.
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12-02-2013, 12:27 PM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:I can affirm there is no evidence there is a God, and I can equally affirm there is no smoking gun that proves there isn't a God. There is just data that is open to interpretation. You would admit that if Jesus appeared to you in bodily form, there would be a possible interpretation that you need to return to Christianity and a possible interpretation that it was an hallucination.
Cool.

Although, I can't help but wonder if this would have even been pondered prior to my logic post. It's easy to lose track. Wink

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12-02-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: What is faith?
(12-02-2013 12:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I understand. I'm not arguing that God exists because most people say He does. That would be fallacious. I am saying two things:
1. We all can cite where we hope people go by strength of evidence rather than by bias. Most people we know say they are objective in these matters and are not.
Can you rephrase that, please? I was unable to understand what message you were trying to convey because of the sentence's odd structuring.

(12-02-2013 12:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  2. You are an example of such bias with the end of your post. If the "we" is people, homo sapiens, there is data you are interpreting as evidence that man evolved over a long period rather than being specially created. I'm open-minded here, however, I'm also aware that theories like punctuated equilibrium explain gaps in our knowledge and the fossil record.
If by "bias" you mean that I favor extensively tested and well-substantiated scientific theories over unsupported mythology and superstition - sure, I agree. Otherwise, please elaborate.

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12-02-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: What is faith?
So much fail, it is almost a win.

There are more muslims than christians. Is their version more correct? Shouldn't your title be "PleaseMohammad" instead?

If it is the fastest growing religion, then Islam wins again.

If it is the fastest growing opinion on religion in the US, then atheists win.

Don't give me that special pleading bullshit.

It appears I am done though. You're just getting silly. I am no longer interested in your proselytizing.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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12-02-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:Can you rephrase that, please? I was unable to understand what message you were trying to convey because of the sentence's odd structuring.
I'm sorry. I'd restate it as we all believe we are objective, even in spiritual matters, and are remarkable as a species in demonstrating bias even in the face of evidence.
Quote:If by "bias" you mean that I favor extensively tested and well-substantiated scientific theories over unsupported mythology and superstition - sure, I agree. Otherwise, please elaborate.
There is no proof that there is a God. There is no proof that there isn't. It all comes down to your bias, then, does it not?
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