What is faith?
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12-02-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:So much fail, it is almost a win.

There are more muslims than christians. Is their version more correct? Shouldn't your title be "PleaseMohammad" instead?

If it is the fastest growing religion, then Islam wins again.

If it is the fastest growing opinion on religion in the US, then atheists win.

Don't give me that special pleading bullshit.

It appears I am done though. You're just getting silly. I am no longer interested in your proselytizing.
My "special pleading" wasn't for Christianity. It was for the fact that the majority of the people believe in a God or a Spirit or etc. Here's where you say--wait for it--I'm less biased than most people and smarter than most people. Go for it. Perhaps the proof I should ask you for is evidence of your objectivity and superiority.
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12-02-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: What is faith?
(12-02-2013 01:59 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Can you rephrase that, please? I was unable to understand what message you were trying to convey because of the sentence's odd structuring.
I'm sorry. I'd restate it as we all believe we are objective, even in spiritual matters, and are remarkable as a species in demonstrating bias even in the face of evidence.
Quote:If by "bias" you mean that I favor extensively tested and well-substantiated scientific theories over unsupported mythology and superstition - sure, I agree. Otherwise, please elaborate.
There is no proof that there is a God. There is no proof that there isn't. It all comes down to your bias, then, does it not?

No, it comes down to evidence and reason.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-02-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: What is faith?
(12-02-2013 01:59 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm sorry. I'd restate it as we all believe we are objective, even in spiritual matters, and are remarkable as a species in demonstrating bias even in the face of evidence.
My experience has been a different one, but I can see where you're coming from.

(12-02-2013 01:59 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There is no proof that there is a God. There is no proof that there isn't.
Agreed.

(12-02-2013 01:59 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  It all comes down to your bias, then, does it not?
Do you mean that because there is no proof for or against the existence of a supernatural deity, one can only take a definitive stance on the issue (ex. "God exists." or "God does not exist.") by using biased reasoning?

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12-02-2013, 02:21 PM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2013 02:27 PM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: What is faith?
(12-02-2013 02:01 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:So much fail, it is almost a win.

There are more muslims than christians. Is their version more correct? Shouldn't your title be "PleaseMohammad" instead?

If it is the fastest growing religion, then Islam wins again.

If it is the fastest growing opinion on religion in the US, then atheists win.

Don't give me that special pleading bullshit.

It appears I am done though. You're just getting silly. I am no longer interested in your proselytizing.
My "special pleading" wasn't for Christianity. It was for the fact that the majority of the people believe in a God or a Spirit or etc. Here's where you say--wait for it--I'm less biased than most people and smarter than most people. Go for it. Perhaps the proof I should ask you for is evidence of your objectivity and superiority.
You're special pleading is for religion in general. The majority of those people believe in some sort of god. What then in a 100 years? What if the majority do not believe in a god? Does that make the future people right? What then of those in the past before the invention of Judaism (and by extension Christianity and Islam)? Were they right? The reason why the appeal to popularity is a fallacy is because an untruth is still not true, no matter how many people agree to say it is.

You're less biased? How did you arrive at that conclusion? What religion were you raised in? What is the religious opinion of your family? The majority opinion of the community you grew up in?

Smarter? You openly admit to committing logical fallacies in what you say. You recognize what you are saying is absurd and do it anyways. You are not smarter, you have some measure of memorized information. But that does not make you smarter. How does one measure how smart they are?

Evidence of my objectivity and superiority? You have not asked anything about my past, and therefore know nothing of my frame of reference for forming objective opinions. I don't claim superiority. When did I ever insinuate that?

I was raised in southern middle Tennessee. In a fairly religious family that began to frequent church after 2 deaths in our family. I was saved and baptized in southern baptist churches. I would have remained of the opinion I was a christian until ~18 years old, when I decided to start saying I was "spiritual but not religious." Which really just meant that I was still afraid of death and wanted to believe in something for the sake of believing I was immortal (or some part of me was immortal). I realized I had never actually learned anything about any of the other major religions of our time. I knew more about the Greek and Roman gods than I did about Islam and Judaism. So, I took a class on Western Religions and learned about Judaism, Catholicism, and Islam. That made me even more aware of how similar they were but how little they all actually knew about the way things work in the real world. I kept taking classes on science (mainly geology and paleontology) and found myself confronted with the question of "Do you believe god exists?" Realized my answer was no and started learning more about the universe via science. I also started looking more and more into religion (particularly Christianity) because I wanted to know why I was so damn compelled by it and why so many still are.

If I am wrong, I want to know. But I have to be shown where I am wrong and why I am wrong. To date, I have had plenty of religious people tell me I am wrong. All they can present is anecdotal evidence, and that no more proves god than aliens have abducted people or that Charles Manson was god. Or they assert that the bible is true and that is why I am wrong. But they can't explain why parts of it are obviously false but other parts are apparently obviously right. They always fail to see that the parts of the bible they want to be true, are the parts they say are literally true, while the parts they don't like are either A) not meant to be taken literally B) taken out of context C) were for a culture at a different time or D) that Jesus died for our sins so none of that counts.


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12-02-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:Do you mean that because there is no proof for or against the existence of a supernatural deity, one can only take a definitive stance on the issue (ex. "God exists." or "God does not exist.") by using biased reasoning?
Close, close! Now, what is the definitive stance? IMO, heading for the source. For example, a stranger says there are free screeners on a site to [Your choice, The Hobbit, Skyfall, Harold & Kumar, whatever]. You don't know the stranger and have some anecdotal evidence that there may be free movie tickets. In this case, going online whether a skeptic trying to disprove or as an aspirant wanting free movie tickets would take you next step.
You see where I'm going with this?
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12-02-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:Which really just meant that I was still afraid of death and wanted to believe in something for the sake of believing I was immortal (or some part of me was immortal)... If I am wrong, I want to know. But I have to be shown where I am wrong and why I am wrong...
Okay, I'll start there. You've heard and I've heard numerous Christians say something to the effect of, "Stop branding me as afraid of death or Hell. I'm no longer afraid of it, I don't think about it as often as non-Christians, etc." (and I know Atheists say these things also) but... the response to that kind of line is normally what...? "I don't think you were ever saved."
So, I'd likely conclude you were either never saved or are saved and have some kind of mysterious journey you're on... but that is an aside to what really bothers me about what you wrote:
Quote:A) not meant to be taken literally B) taken out of context C) were for a culture at a different time or D) that Jesus died for our sins so none of that counts.
A, C and D are huge "Christian" cop-outs to me. B is ultra-important, since EVERYTHING that is worth examining deserves context. Without context, people would take Obama as both a Christian and a Muslim based on the media tripe and etc. Context. Without context, certain things lose their factual value for us.

I've got to say, I've heard many Atheists tell their deconversion history, and I've yet to meet one who was in a good church that not only promoted Bible belief but Bible study and accurately, and lovingly and with good doctrine, etc. I deal with the walking wounded all the time from churches, not the world, and have concluded recently that free will is not only for salvation or for Atheists but for Christians. That's right, you can be a Christian and still be bigoted, narrow minded, stupid, etc.
Saved? Yes. Stupid, yes? (Not you TBD, I'm talking about church people I know). Oh well, what can I say?
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12-02-2013, 03:42 PM
Re: What is faith?
Look up Penn Jillettes conversion story.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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12-02-2013, 03:45 PM
RE: What is faith?
(12-02-2013 03:39 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I've got to say, I've heard many Atheists tell their deconversion history, and I've yet to meet one who was in a good church that not only promoted Bible belief but Bible study and accurately, and lovingly and with good doctrine, etc.
Bart D. Ehrman, PhD.

You committed the "no true Christian" fallacy. Fail.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-02-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:Look up Penn Jillettes conversion story.
Penn's a cool guy, I've met him in person. His church was restrictive and controlling. Look up his video where he talks about the kindness and guts a man showed him in presenting Penn with a Bible.
Quote:You committed the "no true Christian" fallacy. Fail.
No, I presented anecdotal evidence. I've read dozens of deconversion stories and unlike my church, where there are hundreds of true Christians, it's always with people in churches that condemn any kind of questioning mindset... you can skewer me on an anecdotal evidence fallacy if you like, but that's my story and I'm sticking with it.
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12-02-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: What is faith?
(12-02-2013 03:57 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Look up Penn Jillettes conversion story.
Penn's a cool guy, I've met him in person. His church was restrictive and controlling. Look up his video where he talks about the kindness and guts a man showed him in presenting Penn with a Bible.
Quote:You committed the "no true Christian" fallacy. Fail.
No, I presented anecdotal evidence. I've read dozens of deconversion stories and unlike my church, where there are hundreds of true Christians, it's always with people in churches that condemn any kind of questioning mindset... you can skewer me on an anecdotal evidence fallacy if you like, but that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

OK, here's anecdotal counter-evidence: Bart D. Ehrman, PhD

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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