What is faith?
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08-02-2013, 09:01 AM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:Selection is the OPPOSITE of random. You really don't understand evolutionary theory.
Pardon me, but you snipped what I actually wrote. "For a very specific example, it's a challenge for me to believe in mechanistic evolution because I've observed a lot of evidence in design that challenges my notions of randomness and the finite abilities of selection and mutation."
That is, I understand randomness is the core of mechanistic evolution without an intelligent designer and selection and mutation can work on their own for higher order but are finite in scope and power--which is to say, power against randomness. You are either misquoting what I said or not able to understand it.
You do this often, Chas, misinterpret what I read. Please read my quotes more carefully. Thanks.
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08-02-2013, 09:51 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 10:00 AM by Chas.)
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 09:01 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Selection is the OPPOSITE of random. You really don't understand evolutionary theory.
Pardon me, but you snipped what I actually wrote. "For a very specific example, it's a challenge for me to believe in mechanistic evolution because I've observed a lot of evidence in design that challenges my notions of randomness and the finite abilities of selection and mutation."
That is, I understand randomness is the core of mechanistic evolution without an intelligent designer and selection and mutation can work on their own for higher order but are finite in scope and power--which is to say, power against randomness. You are either misquoting what I said or not able to understand it.
You do this often, Chas, misinterpret what I read. Please read my quotes more carefully. Thanks.

How are mutation and selection finite?

The same chemical code and mechanisms underlie all life on earth. If the existing variation is finite, the possible variation is boundless.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-02-2013, 10:21 AM
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 08:57 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Those two term definitions: ( 1) Faith = trust and 2) Trust Jesus ) may be held as Bible terms/concepts before we move on to discuss whether one says the Bible itself is trustworthy. The Bible teaches clearly that faith in Jesus is reasonable, not blind.


Spock is reasonable but I don't think I would place my trust in a fictional character no matter how inspiring he may be.

(08-02-2013 09:01 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Pardon me, but you snipped what I actually wrote. "For a very specific example, it's a challenge for me to believe in mechanistic evolution because I've observed a lot of evidence in design that challenges my notions of randomness and the finite abilities of selection and mutation."
That is, I understand randomness is the core of mechanistic evolution without an intelligent designer and selection and mutation can work on their own for higher order but are finite in scope and power--which is to say, power against randomness.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding but the use of the phrase "higher order" is easily misconstrued. This may seem a bit quibbling but I see this as a somewhat erroneous inference regarding evolution. There is no specific directional achievement which applies to evolution itself. There is no "higher" or even "order" in the sense that a species evolves to get "better" in some way or "taller" or possibly "shorter". A species genetically evolves to meet whatever it needs to adapt and continue.

It has been observed that a species can actually evolve to simply die out in favor of other heartier cousins to carry the genetic material, entropy is but one process of evolution. It all takes a very long time. It's about continuing life on the planet, whatever that life may turn out to be but it is not to say that there is a direction or outcome of sorts. Life itself is a living experiment.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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08-02-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: What is faith?
(07-02-2013 10:57 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 09:04 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  A lack of proof and not having absolute certainty, with a belief, in my view, does not correspond, directly with faith because of the word know/knowledge. Any time you have absolute certainty, you are describing knowledge, in my view. I guess that's the distinction between my definition and yours. If you equated something not giving you absolute certainty and proof, with faith, that might as a result equate belief with knowledge, or faith with belief, and I feel they all need a proper, philosophical and linguistic, distinction.

There are other things in you post, I kind of see as being slightly contradictory, and I definitely think it's irrational to assume your wife won't cheat on you, in most realistic situations, but I'll just keep it sort of simple.
I absolutely agree with what you said about knowledge.

Also, I'm not saying that a lack of proof or absolute certainty necessarily leads to faith. It's the other way around. In order to have faith, a lack of proof and absolute certainty are necessary.

I also don't assume my wife won't cheat on me. I have faith that she won't and I trust that she won't. Assuming is yet another word and isn't the same at all.

Assuming it, is something that you would be doing, if you had faith in it. I guess, that is kind of away from the point, however, and I doubt we want to add in more definitions.

I really don't see that big of a divide between my definition and yours (for faith), except that I just don't like using 'proof and absolute certainty' as part of the definition. Why would you feel the need to use those terms, specifically?

I see using reason/rationality as providing a good practical versus philosophical divide, which is something that you seemed to be interested in, given that you objected to TBD, even coming close to, going toward a more philosophical discussion.

In a strict philosophical sense, you have things like the problem of induction, a lot of skeptical arguments, to deal with, that could make 'irrational' the same as 'without proof and/or absolute certainty'. However, if you were being practical, making certain underlying, philosophical assumptions, that most people never even think about, much, if at all, in their entire lives, you wouldn't see a lot of things as irrational, but technically, they could still be considered without proof, or especially, absolute certainty. Are you implying that those underlying, philosophical assumptions, are faith-based, or lead to faith-based beliefs; and/or are you implying that you are stretching the meaning of 'proof' and the meaning of 'absolute certainty' to correspond with being practical?

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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08-02-2013, 10:54 AM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:Spock is reasonable but I don't think I would place my trust in a fictional character no matter how inspiring he may be.

And I wouldn't either. That's a titanic-sized generalization, that all the millions of born again Christians trust a fictional character on a daily basis. Specifically, trust is a one-time act for salvation, but an ongoing dynamic for Christian living.

I am a man of faith. I live by trust in Jesus. When I attempt to look at myself objectively, I'd say I'm reasonably skeptical and require evidence before placing my trust in anyone or anything other than Jesus.

I love Star Trek, and I admire Mr. Spock, but I don't entrust my daily decisions to him for the same reasons you wouldn't. The canard that all born again Christians are into easy believing every day, hundreds of times a week when their trust is tested, seems... highly illogical. Live long and prosper.

As for evolution, please keep that off the thread. I'm sorry I brought it up.
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08-02-2013, 10:58 AM
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 10:54 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Spock is reasonable but I don't think I would place my trust in a fictional character no matter how inspiring he may be.

And I wouldn't either. That's a titanic-sized generalization, that all the millions of born again Christians trust a fictional character on a daily basis. Specifically, trust is a one-time act for salvation, but an ongoing dynamic for Christian living.

I am a man of faith. I live by trust in Jesus. When I attempt to look at myself objectively, I'd say I'm reasonably skeptical and require evidence before placing my trust in anyone or anything other than Jesus.

I love Star Trek, and I admire Mr. Spock, but I don't entrust my daily decisions to him for the same reasons you wouldn't. The canard that all born again Christians are into easy believing every day, hundreds of times a week when their trust is tested, seems... highly illogical. Live long and prosper.

As for evolution, please keep that off the thread. I'm sorry I brought it up.


Why do you not look at Christianity skeptically?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-02-2013, 11:17 AM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:Why do you not look at Christianity skeptically?
Um, you are almost completely misreading my post, which is stating that Christians are almost universally skeptical thinkers. I know--I spend a lot of time dealing with churched people who to a person are critical thinkers who want to question my assumptions, theology, philosophy of ministry, etc.
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08-02-2013, 11:20 AM
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 10:54 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I am a man of faith. I live by trust in Jesus. When I attempt to look at myself objectively, I'd say I'm reasonably skeptical and require evidence before placing my trust in anyone or anything other than Jesus.


Special pleading, also known as stacking the deck, ignoring the counterevidence, slanting, and one-sided assessment,[1] is a form of spurious argument where a position in a dispute introduces favourable details or excludes unfavourable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.[2] The lack of criticism may be a simple oversight (e.g., a reference to common sense) or an application of a double standard.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading




A double standard is the application of different sets of principles for similar situations, or to different people in the same situation.[1] A double standard may take the form of an instance in which certain concepts (often, for example, a word, phrase, social norm, or rule) are perceived as acceptable to be applied by one group of people, but are considered unacceptable—taboo—when applied by another group.

The concept of double standard has long been applied (as early as 1872) to different moral structures on men versus women.[2][3] A double standard, thus, can be described as a sort of biased, morally unfair suspension (toward a certain group) of the principle that all are equal in their freedoms. Such double standards are seen as unjustified because they violate a basic maxim of modern legal jurisprudence: that all parties should stand equal before the law. Double standards also violate the principle of justice known as impartiality, which is based on the assumption that the same standards should be applied to all people, without regard to subjective bias or favoritism based on social class, rank, ethnicity, gender, religion, sexual orientation, age or other distinctions. A double standard violates this principle by holding different people accountable according to different standards. The phrase "life is not fair" may be invoked in order to mollify concerns over double standards.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_standard

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08-02-2013, 11:37 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 01:00 PM by kim.)
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 10:54 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Spock is reasonable but I don't think I would place my trust in a fictional character no matter how inspiring he may be.

And I wouldn't either. That's a titanic-sized generalization, that all the millions of born again Christians trust a fictional character on a daily basis. Specifically, trust is a one-time act for salvation, but an ongoing dynamic for Christian living.

I am a man of faith. I live by trust in Jesus. When I attempt to look at myself objectively, I'd say I'm reasonably skeptical and require evidence before placing my trust in anyone or anything other than Jesus.

I love Star Trek, and I admire Mr. Spock, but I don't entrust my daily decisions to him for the same reasons you wouldn't. The canard that all born again Christians are into easy believing every day, hundreds of times a week when their trust is tested, seems... highly illogical. Live long and prosper.

Fair enough. However, I personally do not suppose to homogenize all christian behavior to the extreme of praying for a green bean casserole to come out all crispy on top and creamy on the inside.

(08-02-2013 10:54 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  As for evolution, please keep that off the thread. I'm sorry I brought it up.

Since you did bring it up and into the argument somehow... an understanding of the actual working process would be necessary to get everyone on the same page... if only for the sake of argument.
You state you have faith and place your trust in Jesus. If someone tells you "evolution goes against your faith"... should you not fully understand evolution in order to make a decision which may or may not have anything to do with your faith? I don't see how skepticism could displace trust in Jesus. They are two different things. Jesus advised that each man will find his own way... if I were you I'd look a bit sideways at whoever tells you your faith, cause they sure don't know evolution. Maybe they don't know your Jesus, either.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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08-02-2013, 11:37 AM
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 11:17 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Why do you not look at Christianity skeptically?
Um, you are almost completely misreading my post, which is stating that Christians are almost universally skeptical thinkers. I know--I spend a lot of time dealing with churched people who to a person are critical thinkers who want to question my assumptions, theology, philosophy of ministry, etc.

But you are not looking at your faith or belief in Jesus critically.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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