What is faith?
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08-02-2013, 12:01 PM
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 11:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  But you are not looking at your faith or belief in Jesus critically.

I personally have no interest in anyone's belief in Jesus. Nor will I discuss how tingly might I get when I think about Superman. Dodgy

But yea, if one has intertwined a misunderstood scientific concept with faith, then an examination of both would be a proper avenue of critical thinking.



As for Superman, please keep that off the thread. I'm sorry I brought it up. Drinking Beverage

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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08-02-2013, 12:49 PM
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 10:54 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I am a man of faith. I live by trust in Jesus. When I attempt to look at myself objectively, I'd say I'm reasonably skeptical and require evidence before placing my trust in anyone or anything other than Jesus.
And this is precisely where the problem lies.

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08-02-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:And this is precisely where the problem lies.
Sorry to be unclear. I'm skeptical with Jesus also, my point when I said my faith is tested daily. A better way to restate would perhaps be, "I'm skeptical with all things, and Jesus has shown Himself praiseworthy during my tests. But to extend the myth of easy believe-ism to all Christians should be discarded. Didn't the disciples face brutality even from their own people? They had no easy path..."
Quote:You state you have faith and place your trust in Jesus. If someone tells you "evolution goes against your faith"... should you not fully understand evolution in order to make a decision which may or may not have anything to do with your faith? I don't see how skepticism could displace trust in Jesus. They are two different things. Jesus advised that each man will find his own way... if I were you I'd look a bit sideways at whoever tells you your faith, cause they sure don't know evolution. Maybe they don't know your Jesus, either.
That's a non-sequitur. There are millions of Christians who believe in Theistic Evolution, right? And you're assuming I had no ideas about Evolution before my conversion. My dad coordinated science programs for tens of thousands of gifted high school students in public schools. I grew up going to botanical gardens and aquariums learning an appreciation for Latin names and classic Evolutionary taxonomy. I completely accepted Evolution as fact before trusting in Christ.
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08-02-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: What is faith?
Ok then. What tests have you done RE:Jesus?
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08-02-2013, 03:40 PM
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 02:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And you're assuming I had no ideas about Evolution before my conversion.

I did not assume anything of the sort. I observed that a few of your statements were represented with erroneous phrases about evolution. My post about these erroneous statements was dismissed with, "As for evolution, please keep that off the thread. I'm sorry I brought it up.".

As I said, I do not care that anyone has a belief. I also said, if one has intertwined a misunderstood scientific concept with faith, then an examination of both (the scientific concept and the faith) would be a proper avenue of critical thinking.

Not to step on any toes but I might suggest a brush up on your understanding of evolution. As for your faith; you're on your own with that as I said, I don't care that anyone has a belief.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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08-02-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:Ok then. What tests have you done RE:Jesus?
Let's start with this: I've read the entire Bible in multiple versions multiple times. There's no freethinker on this forum that has read the entire Bible 20-plus times, is there? There's extraordinary typeology of Jesus in the life of Joseph, here are some examples, http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/...joseph.htm and there are nearly 100 more in the few chapters of Joseph's life in the Bible. What makes this extra-extraordinary (!) to me about this extraordinary claim Smile is how the New Testament doesn't mention this or even place Joseph in the heroes of faith chapter in Hebrews 11.
Please understand that I've been personally presented with hundreds of contradictions in the Bible by other people, books and websites, and my own reasonings. Each one has been refuted in the course of my Bible readings.
Since the majority of what we can know about Jesus today is in the Bible, the Bible needs to be subjected to rigorous testing. What tests have you done re: Jesus?
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08-02-2013, 04:19 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 04:44 PM by Vosur.)
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 03:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Let's start with this: I've read the entire Bible in multiple versions multiple times. There's no freethinker on this forum that has read the entire Bible 20-plus times, is there? There's extraordinary typeology of Jesus in the life of Joseph, here are some examples, http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/...joseph.htm and there are nearly 100 more in the few chapters of Joseph's life in the Bible. What makes this extra-extraordinary (!) to me about this extraordinary claim Smile is how the New Testament doesn't mention this or even place Joseph in the heroes of faith chapter in Hebrews 11.
How exactly does this constitute a test of the claims being made about Jesus?

Edit: And you do realize that the authors of the New Testament knew the contents of the Torah, right?

(08-02-2013 03:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Please understand that I've been personally presented with hundreds of contradictions in the Bible by other people, books and websites, and my own reasonings. Each one has been refuted in the course of my Bible readings.
The assertion that you have refuted every single Bible contradiction you've been confronted with doesn't hold any weight unless you are able to demonstrate that this is even partially true.

Before we go any further, I need you to answer the following question: Do you believe hat the Bible is inerrant?

(08-02-2013 03:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Since the majority of what we can know about Jesus today is in the Bible, the Bible needs to be subjected to rigorous testing.
That has been done extensively in the past.

(08-02-2013 03:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  What tests have you done re: Jesus?
I have examined the available evidence and have found it to be both unreliable and contradictory.

Just as a reminder, many people on here already know a lot about the Bible because actually reading it for the first time is what started the deconversion process for them.

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08-02-2013, 04:57 PM
RE: What is faith?
Oy vey! I'll ask anyone who cares to answer, what would you accept as rigorous testing for a deity who is invisible and only reveals Himself to those who want to be His followers (other than the blazingly obvious)? Smile
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08-02-2013, 04:58 PM
RE: What is faith?
(08-02-2013 04:57 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Oy vey! I'll ask anyone who cares to answer, what would you accept as rigorous testing for a deity who is invisible and only reveals Himself to those who want to be His followers (other than the blazingly obvious)? Smile
An examination of the empirical evidence and the philosophical arguments for and against its existence, followed by a comparison with other deities, especially those of polytheistic and henotheistic religions.

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11-02-2013, 09:53 AM
RE: What is faith?
Quote:An examination of the empirical evidence and the philosophical arguments for and against its existence, followed by a comparison with other deities, especially those of polytheistic and henotheistic religions.
And what empirical evidence would satisfy both your requirements as an honest, open-minded skeptic who does not wish to become a Christian and Jesus's clear statements that evidence is not forthcoming to those who don't want to trust Him?
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